I.Sorby double logo back saws WIP

[Mr_P]

Never seen an I.Sorby saw with a double Mr Punch logo before and then three turn up all at once, I was lucky enough to buy two of them.

The larger 14" is the easier of the two, I've plenty of screws saved from derelict saws and despite the shallow teeth it does feel reasonably sharp. So might attempt to a quick sharpen and then go from there.

The 12" is a lot more challenging. The original plan before it arrived was to follow AndyT's excellent example here

bristol-saw-restoration-t86283.html


but when it arrived it was immediately obvious more drastic action would be called for.

The saw plate is too thin, flexes all over the shop and has a lovely S shape. Should be fun and even if I can get the screws off it doesn't mean the handle will come off, the 14" has no screws but the handle isn't going anywhere.

 

[bugbear]

The 12" is a lot more challenging.

but when it arrived it was immediately obvious more drastic action would be called for.

The saw plate is too thin, flexes all over the shop and has a lovely S shape.

The teeth are partially broken, appallingly uneven in size, and the toothline is a country mile from straight.

Even I would (have) simply filed those off and recut (by hand)

BugBear (completist).

 

[Mr_P]

Apologies Bugbear just realised AndyT linked to a different Paul Sellers video, this is the one I was thinking of

Recutting and Resizing Saw Teeth - with Paul Sellers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTqZTGPPRj0

That was my plan but due to the thickness and bent nature of the saw plate think I'll replace it.

Forgot to my mention my crackpot theory: 2 x Mr Punch = seconds

12" fault saw blade too thin, not tight /stiff
14" fault larger medallion hole on the wrong side

Realise 2 saws isn't enough to base a theory on but I did say Crackpot.

 

[AndyT]

Hi Mr P,

Nice theory, but there's at least one more saw with two pictures of you on the back, illustrated on page 598 of Simon Barley's book, and dated by him as about 1920.

Elsewhere he illustrates a saw marked 'Waster' saying that it was a rare reject, presumably smuggled out of the factory.

I think you've just got two old, abused saws, like I did!

 

[bugbear]

Apologies Bugbear just realised AndyT linked to a different Paul Sellers video, this is the one I was thinking of

Recutting and Resizing Saw Teeth - with Paul Sellers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTqZTGPPRj0

Not an approach I rate at all. I think Sellers has enough skill
to make almost any idea work, but I don't think his ideas
(where novel) are good.

His demonstrations of conventional A&C techniques are good
but I think he's working too hard to synthesize "secrets" that he
can promote on his courses.

BugBear

 

[ajmacleod]

Out of interest BB, what technique would you suggest instead? I was recently inspired by PS myself to rescue an old saw (which I'll post about separately) and though it could probably have benefited from it I didn't file all the teeth off, merely levelled them a bit and resharpened & set.

Being completely new to this aspect of woodworking I'm interested to see different approaches... also releated to the 14" saw here with the shallow teeth - is there a general rule as to how deep they should be for a nicely-cutting saw? Apologies to Mr_P if I'm taking his thread off course, I can shift these questions to another if desired...

 

[Mr_P]

AJ,
Hijack away, as long as its on topic eg saw related I'm not fussed. We are very lucky on this site to have some very knowledgeable folk on here who are very willing to share.

When it comes to saw sharpening you probably know as much or more than I do.

BB,
I'd also be interested in hearing your approach, never done it so any advice greatly appreciated.

AndyT,

Do I win a prize for the shortest lived crack pot theory ever ? Note to self, buy that book.

 

[bugbear]

I simply laser print the tooth spacings I want (I can even do progressive pitch easily this way), stick it on the blade,
and file a mark for each tooth.

Once the teeth positions are marked (but the teeth not actually made) I remove the paper,
and proceed as normal, deepening each gullet, taking care to (try to...) keep
them even as I go.

General comment - making new teeth is easier than reworking very badly filed existing teeth,
and these are sadly common.

One off, touch up sharpening (e.g. two file strokes per tooth) is very easy indeed,
although it is the cumulative errors of repeated touch ups that
lead to horror stories.

Every so often you should lightly joint, and work to the flats
instead of stroke counting.

BugBear

 

[Racers]

I have used BB templates to re-cut a saw, I gradually increased the depth by doing I think it was 8 passes it total, watching the size of the flats between the teeth to make sure they where staying equaly pitched.
It was quite a painless process in the end and I would do it again on a badly sharpened saw.

Pete

 

[AndyT]

I'd just like to stress what a revelation it was to me that filing a tenon saw with rip teeth is a good thing to do.
I've spent some time trying to make similar size saws cut properly, using various guides to getting the angles right for textbook crosscut teeth. Although I may have made nice sharp bevels it proved too easy to end up with teeth of different sizes.
The method in the 'other' Paul Sellers video http://youtu.be/UA5DixEaaUo is to file rip, but to use more rake for the first couple of inches. This proved much more practical. There was just enough of the teeth left to give me 10 PPI spacing, and I wouldn't have wanted to go finer than that on a first go.

Most of the cuts on tenons or dovetails are rip cuts anyway, so a rip saw is "right" but the bonus was that it cuts very well across the grain, when cutting to length or sawing tenon shoulders.

PS Sorry about your theory Mr P. Maybe the double marks were done by an employee who liked the extra symmetry they give, and was free to just do it? They do look rather nice.

 

[ajmacleod]

I simply laser print the tooth spacings I want (I can even do progressive pitch easily this way), stick it on the blade,
and file a mark for each tooth.
Once the teeth positions are marked (but the teeth not actually made) I remove the paper,
and proceed as normal, deepening each gullet, taking care to (try to...) keep
them even as I go.

Sounds pretty obvious when you put it like that - I do like this idea better, the Sellers approach seemed like a bit too much of a faff for me to bother with. I will give it a go if the next saw I attack needs its teeth recut (I have a decent sized ripsaw in mind already, which would be very handy to have in a usable state as I don't currently have one.)

 

[whiskywill]

That was my plan but due to the thickness and bent nature of the saw plate think I'll replace it.

I have a Tyzack saw which I picked up at a car boot sale. It has a superb handle but the saw plate is very thin and flexible and has a nice sideways wave in it which I think would be impossible to remove by reseating the blade. Where do you get a replacement plate, either with or without the teeth already cut?

 

[Mr_P]

Think you can buy spring steel but I'm just going to use a donor.

Option 1: Disston handsaw that's been used as target practice but might be too thick.

Option 2: Brass backed tenon saw with no handle and badly pitted in a straight line where it meets the brass back.

 

[Mr_P]

Bugbear,

Thanks for the tip, exactly as AJ said sounds so obvious now you say it.

AndyT,

Guess without hard evidence, catalogues or first hand knowledge we will never know for sure. Having said that there should still be people out there who worked at the Northern tool works in the 50's/early 60's. Born 1940 left school in 54/56 and served 7/9 years so only 75 this year.

Saw Update

14"
Managed to tease the handle off and sanded using one of those foam sanding blocks and a few squirts of wd40, came up a treat. Just need to re-attach handle, add screws and a quick sharpen and then its good to go.

12"
Attacked an old screwdriver with a hacksaw and file and created a split nut driver, split nuts easily removed but the bolts wow that's another story, hammering , swearing , more hammering worked on one but the other wasn't going anywhere. Had to drill it in the end. Handle came off very easily then and managed to tease the old saw plate out.

A very kind and generous forum member has offered to send me a bit of spring steel at postage prices. Would love to name him and thank him publicly but he might not appreciate me doing so but suffice to say I'm very grateful, wasn't looking forward to cutting a piece off an old saw.

Daft question: When it arrives how do I get it back into the brass back ?

Force it open gently ? Then insert and squeeze back together in the vice ?

Any better ideas ?

 

[AndyT]

For refitting the saw plate this might help - see bottom right hand corner. The special tool really is what was used and should be easy to make (though impossible to buy.)