Jacob":2sw38gst said:Take no notice D_W, sharpening makes a lot of them very uneasy. Doesn't take much to set them off!
Keep up the good work - I am reading it and may even take some notice.
You could even plagiarise it for your next lecture.
Jacob":2sw38gst said:Take no notice D_W, sharpening makes a lot of them very uneasy. Doesn't take much to set them off!
Keep up the good work - I am reading it and may even take some notice.
Dangermouse 2nd":1f7pbhoq said:Well, i do like to base things on facts, but really this is getting a bit pedantic. I use as i have for years, a medium carburundum, fine natural stone, finish on a very very fine natural stone, lubricated with turps and sewing machine oil mixture. In two minutes i can shave with the edge. Good enough for me. You can over analyse anything.....
Jacob":3mxolvxn said:Actually there is one enormous difference which is that the hand worker was also the motive power and the style of working would be much harder and very different from modern hand work.
You can see it in those old films chair makers, clog makers etc - they were making ordinary stuff at speed, not the so-called fine woodwork favoured by the mags and the amateurs of today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGDkliy1DEU
You can see it in a lot of old furniture where every detail is a compromise between haste and speed resulting in a standard which is only just good enough
Trevanion":8zuq73ib said:Have you made anything with the tools? That's what I'd be interested in seeing on the forum.
Very nice guitar D_W I'm impressed. Have you built any sheds lately? :lol:
I'd got to more or less the same point of view by that stage in the thread: David's done a lot of work off his own bat and he's offered up his findings. He's not being dogmatic nor is he preaching. For instance, it's not as if he is demanding that we all ditch our old plane irons in favour of PMV11. What it essentially boils down to is providing the information that a final trim with the very finest grit is a useful thing to do and we can take or leave that as we see fit.AndyT":11aiozk3 said:I'm trying to work out why David's efforts are not appreciated as much as they might be. He's gone to considerable effort and expense.
In trying to distil his posts to a couple of simple messages, I think I get to these:
1 - The new "PMV111" steel used by Veritas does keep an edge longer than the carbon steel used for the last 250 years.
2 - Sharpening to a very fine grit is worthwhile - the edge lasts longer and the finish is better.
3 - These differences are not often noticed because
(a) most of us don't hand plane for long periods with frequent sharpenings and
(b) some boards of the same species will blunt an edge much quicker than others.
Is that a fair summary?
Jacob":1z3w3ncf said:Very nice guitar D_W I'm impressed. Have you built any sheds lately? :lol:AndyT":1z3w3ncf said:
PS I might have a go at going one stone finer tomorrow - you've talked me into it.
I'v got black and white Arkansas - the black seems finer is that correct?
Andy Kev.":29uv5wh5 said:........surely we cannot deny it as a matter of fact........
Which stronger tests with less subjective outcomes did you have in mind?MikeG.":2sw8ce7p said:............... My argument is that his tests are weak and so his claims are subjective.
I don't want to get embroiled in this but Mike, to be equitable shouldn't you be equally critical of some of the logical fallacies used by others in their responses? I skimmed the thread last night and managed to spot three or four.MikeG.":1mnjwloc said:They aren't helped by over-blown claims of expertise amounting to an argument from authority, one of the classic logical fallacies.
Who's Pete Townshend?Andy Kev.":392skhln said:Jacob":392skhln said:Very nice guitar D_W I'm impressed. Have you built any sheds lately? :lol:AndyT":392skhln said:
PS I might have a go at going one stone finer tomorrow - you've talked me into it.
I'v got black and white Arkansas - the black seems finer is that correct?
Eh? I don't think that even Pete Townshend could bash out decent chords on a shed. It'd look daft on stage, anyway. :mrgreen:
Why would it not be?Trevanion":1y3grprt said:Jacob":1y3grprt said:Actually there is one enormous difference which is that the hand worker was also the motive power and the style of working would be much harder and very different from modern hand work.
You can see it in those old films chair makers, clog makers etc - they were making ordinary stuff at speed, not the so-called fine woodwork favoured by the mags and the amateurs of today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGDkliy1DEU
You can see it in a lot of old furniture where every detail is a compromise between haste and speed resulting in a standard which is only just good enough
I don't see how my signature quote of Foyster's was a part of the conversation? :?
It's just that the sheer hardwork of hand tool production gets forgotten. Take DTs - it's fashionable to fuss about slowly with gadgets, jigs, fret saws etc but back then one man would bashing them out 100s per day, head-down brain-off.To be honest, I'm not even sure what relevance what you said had to it. It's more to do with the fact people always associate handwork as "craftsmanship" when there's equal measures of craftsmanship in doing the same job with machines.
Jacob":xxnl7y5r said:It's just that the sheer hardwork of hand tool production gets forgotten. Take DTs - it's fashionable to fuss about slowly with gadgets, jigs, fret saws etc but back then one man would bashing them out 100s per day, head-down brain-off.
Morticing he would resemble more the hand mortice machine triumph-mortiser-restoration-t116867.html than modern bench top fiddlings we see on youtube etc. A human machine.
Nothing wrong with that.Trevanion":2q8l5tyc said:.......... if I can keep the quality so that it equals or surpasses the old craftsmen but can do it in half the time using machines what’s wrong with that?
MikeG.":jb5itsea said:Andy Kev.":jb5itsea said:........surely we cannot deny it as a matter of fact........
Nor can we yet accept it as a matter of fact. His tests are insubstantial and subjective. That doesn't mean that the results are wrong*, just that until the tests are done properly, many times over, and by other people, they are nothing more than a claim. They aren't helped by over-blown claims of expertise amounting to an argument from authority, one of the classic logical fallacies.
*You'll notice that at no stage have I ever suggested that what DW has come up with is wrong. My argument is that his tests are weak and so his claims are subjective.
My point is that craftsmanship in the real world is about producing a good result in spite of banging stuff together at speed.Trevanion":2kiekq9w said:.......the old boys were just banging together drawers from pine for very utilitarian and inexpensive furniture where having a gap here or there didn’t really matter.
Jacob":1o0s4jrk said:My point is that craftsmanship in the real world is about producing a good result in spite of banging stuff together at speed.
D_W":1vt32x57 said:.......Very weak, Mike........
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