I need a hep with a book

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SlimShavings

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Hep is hillbilly for help. Anyway I'm reading a book called "The Artisians of Ipswich" its about some fellers from England, mostly around Suffolk I guess and came and set up a colony of peoplein Ipswich, Mass. Its talks mostly about various wood workers and how they get their lumber etal. The thing I don't understand is how their money worked. They got paid by the pound. doesn't say pound of what. Seems a complete wheel was considered pretty expensive at 2 pounds. A cask at 1. A Mans tools were usually worth about 5 lbs at death. There were some other things they mentioned called that stared with P's and S's.
Then they have this class system i don't understand. Commoners, Selectmen and a couple other kinds. If one of all ya all could help me out I'd 'preciate it. I'm really enjoying the book and that would make it a whole lot more understandable I reckon.


Thanks
 
For starters imperial money was in Pounds Shillings and Pence, written as £.s. d.

Although talking about old calculators basic info is here

£ s d (L.S.D) originates from roman times

See Here under pounds, shillings and pennies.


See here (The panorama portrayed ) for selectmen and (If England ) for commoner.

A commoner had no title to land or property other than the right to graze his animals on 'common land' and in some cases gather wood from local forest.
 
MikeW":1rx2snig said:
Excellent book Slim!

Well worth reading. And want to see if the author knows anything about making furniture of the period? Check out his web site sometime.

http://www.heartofthewood.com/

Take care, Mike

Great site Mike
It just gets better and better. AS soon as I get done with it I will start over :) There seems to be a lot to read between the lines IMHO :) I wish i understood the economics and their social postition better. Might be an interesting comparison to what we get today.
 
most important thing to remember is that english imperial measures
which is basically what they were then are based on units of 12, and then it gets complicated :lol:

so you have a farthing which is 1/4 of a penny
halfpenny which was 1/2 of a penny
a penny which was 1/12th of a shilling.
then threepence which was 1/4 of a shilling,
and six pence which was 1/2 of a shilling
(as an aside, you wonder where you get penny nails from, it was the weight of a specific size that cost a penny.)
a shilling of which there were twenty in a pound
two shillings or a florin which i think we got after the dutch king william 3rd came to power in 1790's of which there were 10 to the pound.
half a crown or 2shillings and 6pence of which there 8 to the pound
next came a crown which was 5 shilling so 4 to the pound
all of these tended to be coins.
next came ten shillings which we all called 10bob. and no i cannot remember why.
then a pound or quid which was 20 shillings. last two were generally notes.
then there was the really difficult one which was the guinea or 21 shillings.
this was a coin, and tended to be used by the gentry. so for instance horses and horse races were always worked in guineas. hence the 1000 guineas, and the two thousand guineas. at uk horse sales they still work in guineas even though we have not had those for more than 35 years.

as for weights you have pounds, and ounces. which you should understand
except in our case there are 16 ounces to a pound, and 2240 pound to a ton, which is actually called a long ton.
an american ton is a short ton or 2000 pounds from memory.
there are also 14pounds to a stone, and and 8 stone to a hundred weight, there were of course 4 quarters to the hundred weight so by definition, they were 28 pounds.

now an english gallon is 1.2009 US gallon.

a gallon is 8 pints which is 4 quarts of 2pints each.
a pint was 4 gills, and to be really tricky the standard measure of a uk spirit such as scotch whisky is 1/6th of a gill which is 1/24th of a pint.

to get a flavour of the class system i could recommend a range of books called the Sharpe series, written by Bernad Cornwell. these are about a soldier who makes his way up the ranks of the british army during the napoleonic wars against france.
he eventually controls a squad and many of them are "chosen men"
which means that they were better provisioned and paid than normal british tommies who were often seduced into the Kings Service by the promise of the Kings Shilling which was often dropped into their drinking glass in a pub, and they were hauled off half drunk to go to war.

as was common at the time many of these conscripts were charged vast amounts of money for all the equipment they needed to go to war, including their bullets.

wellington's main complaint in the war was that more money was made and spent at headquarters than on the equipment supplied to his soldiers.

anyway good luck with beginning to learn, and come on back if we can offer more. :roll:

paul :wink:
 
and to be really tricky the standard measure of a uk spirit such as scotch whisky is 1/6th of a gill which is 1/24th of a pint

If only it were that simple :)

from :- http://www.smws.co.uk/archives/a_to_z_o ... p?letter=N

N is for Nip

Writing in 1950, Marshall Robb (Scotch Whisky) states that “In Scotland in former times the ‘glass’ and ‘nip’ of whisky were respectively one-half and one-quarter of a gill*”. The terms were synonymous with a ‘small/single’ or ‘large/double’ measure, although the measures have changed – hence the familiar order of a ‘half’ (i.e. ‘half a glass’ or a single whisky), oft heard in Glasgow and on the West Coast.

During the First World War, the Scots nip was reduced to one-fifth of a gill by the Central Liquor Control Board, while the standard English spirits measure was made one-sixth of a gill. A few avaricious publicans used the latter measure in Scotland to confuse customers and increase their profit; others returned to the old measure, when they were allowed to, including gentlemen’s clubs. “The true Scottish measure is half-gill or quarter-gill and such should be demanded. A good innkeeper will serve them. The half-gill is almost double one of the debased English doubles” (Ivor Brown, Summer in Scotland, 1952). This remained the situation until January 1995 when all measures went metric, so a nip is now 25mls (between one-fifth and one-sixth of a gill) and a glass is 35ml (which is less than a quarter of a gill).

What of the etymology of ‘nip’? Gavin D Smith tells us (Whisky – A Book of Words, 1993) that it is an abbreviation of ‘nipperkin’, which was an archaic term for half a pint of ale or wine and may have its origins in Dutch or Low German. Until the late 18th century, Scots liquid measures had colourful names like ‘mutchkin’ (4 gills) and ‘chopin’ (2 mutchkins): by such reckoning a ‘nipperkin’ would be equal to a ‘chopin’ (half a Scots pint). To further confuse the issue, a Scots pint was equal to three English pints.

Perhaps the term ‘nip’ also has to do with the perceived effect of swallowing a measure of whisky. Chambers Scots Dictionary defines the word inter alia as ‘to taste sharp; a pungent flavour; a burning, biting taste’, which would describe the fiery confections of the eighteenth century to a tee. I am reminded of the Gaelic ‘morning dram’ which was called a scalc – the same word as ‘skilp’, i.e. a sharp blow to the side of the head!

In some parts of Scotland if you ask for a ‘dram’ you will receive a nip; in other places you will receive a ‘glass’, a large measure. This is confusing for visitors, but both large and small measures are supported by custom and usage. On the one hand, authorities such as Charles Craig (Scotch Whisky Record, 1997) state that a ‘dram’ is “a generous but indeterminate Scottish measure”, while the Scotch Whisky Association claims that “a dram can only apply to a measure of Scotch whisky, the size of which is determined by the generosity of the pourer”. On the other hand, many authorities derive the terms from Greek, drachma, one-eighth of a fluid ounce (.35cl) – a very small amount, familiarly used in measuring out medicines. The Oxford English Dictionary defines it as ‘a small draught of cordial, stimulant or spirituous liquor’.

Perhaps our fondness for diminutives might account for the shifts in meaning from ‘very small’ to ‘generous’ – “I’ll take a wee dram; just the merest hint”, and so on. Certainly the term was current not only as a noun, but as a verb in the early 18th century. ‘Dramming’ – i.e. supplying distillery workers with a glass of whisky at the start and at the end of each shift – was part of the immemorial custom of distilleries until the 1970s, when it was banned in connection with Health and Safety regulations. Distillers used the ‘generous’ interpretation: the dramming measure was usually a gill, and the spirit, which was always at full strength, was either mature or new, depending upon the generosity of the brewer or distillery manager dispensing largesse.

The thinking behind the custom was that if the workers were supplied with generous amounts of free whisky, they would be less tempted to pilfer. It would be churlish to suggest that they had forgotten the old adage: “one dram makes a new man of you, and that new man needs another dram”!

* A gill = 5 fl.oz = 14.2cl
* A pint = 20 fl.oz = 56.8cl (1 fl.oz = 2.84 cl)


bring back the groat too!
 
Engineer one wrote:
class system i could recommend a range of books called the Sharpe series, written by Bernad Cornwell. these are about a soldier who makes his way up the ranks of the british army during the napoleonic wars against france.
he eventually controls a squad and many of them are "chosen men"
which means that they were better provisioned and paid than normal british tommies who were often seduced into the Kings Service by the promise of the Kings Shilling which was often dropped into their drinking glass in a pub, and they were hauled off half drunk to go to war.

as was common at the time many of these conscripts were charged vast amounts of money for all the equipment they needed to go to war, including their bullets.

wellington's main complaint in the war was that more money was made and spent at headquarters than on the equipment supplied to his soldiers.

Sharpie is totally compulsive reading. Once you dip into one you'll have to read the whole lot, one after another like I had to :wink: . Agree entirely with Paul about the description of the class system in England at the time. What's also great about the books is that they are 'faction', a fictional tale interwound with a battle that actually took place in the Peninsular War. I believe Bernard Cornwell wrote Sharp as a companion to the Hornblower books by Forester, which give a graphic insight into life in the Royal Navy during the same period and for my money are even better books
Richard Sharpe tho' is not someone to pick a quarrel with in a dark alley after a couple of beers :lol: - Rob
 
Sharpe's pretty good (and the reason I have all six volumes of Napier's History of the War in the Peninsular - which one day I intend to actually read...); at least the "proper ones" IMO rather than the later fill-in-the-gaps-there's-still-money-in-this titles. In that respect very like Forester; hiccups in the chronology and so forth. Plus we're now saddled with Sean Bean as the visual which spoilt them all for me... :lol: Forester wrote a cracking good story (one of my all time favourite books is "The Ship") but maybe not so hot on historical accuracy - for that I prefer the criminally over-looked Richard Woodman's Drinkwater (still good story telling, but a bit more "Sharpe" in terms of toe-curling detail regarding personal habits and injuries). Dudley Pope had a horrible habit of putting in all the research he ever found and anyway Ramage was too perishing marvellous to be bearable, Bolitho seems to have also gone down the spin-it-out-for-the-money route and once you know the formula you might as well turn to the third from last chapter and find out what happened in the big finale anyway, and I never did warm to O'Brien.

Sorry. You probably thought I could only bore for England on the subject of hand tools too, didn't you? :oops:

Cheers, Alf
 
gee, and who would have thought that tony was so uninterested in Scotch :lol:

interestingly in the pre 1900 railways travelling between scotland and england it was banned to travel with your own bottle or flagon of scotch.
indeed it was a legal offence.

as for sharpe, alf i agree with your extending the range, my thought was just that the phrase chosen men was more easy to understand in the context of war, rather than carpenters in the early days of the colonies.

recently time team went to the states to find one of the early settlements in the original colony of america i can't remember the name, but i think old jamestown.

paul :wink:
 
Alf wrote:
saddled with Sean Bean as the visual which spoilt them all for me... Forester wrote a cracking good story (one of my all time favourite books is "The Ship") but maybe not so hot on historical accuracy
The TV series with Mr Bean is, was and always will be a total 'let down'...I can watch about 5 mins and then have to reach for the zapper. Agree with you again Alf about Forester (I have read them all on about a three year cycle since I was about 12 :oops: )...must be time soon to start Mr Midshipman Hornblower again, and again the recent TV version makes me want to heave a brick thu' the telly :evil: Maybe as you say, not so hot on historical accuracy, but for a descriptive account of life in Nelson's navy and the characters and personalities within it, Hornblower can't be beaten. Apparently Forester wrote the books after getting hold of some journals kept by RN officers of the time. I think he was travelling to Panama and decided to put the factual scribblings of the journals into a fictional character based on Nelson but without any of his foibles. (I've tried the other cloned book offerings [Bolitho ect] but give up after about 6 pages as I keep on thinking back to what HH would have done)....Fight between the 'Lydia' and 'Natividad' has got to be the best sea battle you'll ever read, 'specially when the 'Lydia' is being towed into action by the crew at the boats...make the hair on the back of me neck go rigid :lol: - Rob
 
I can't agree that the TV series was a let-down; there again, I should imagine that I wasn't watching it for the same reason as most visitors to this forum. I love Bernard Cornwell's books, especially the Warlord Chronicles about Arthur, but I've always avoided his Sharpe novels. It's very rare that I can take to a book once I've seen it on television; nor can I easily accept the dramatising of a book which I've already enjoyed.

Gill (who is happy to see her name mentioned in this thread repeatedly and with such distinction :lol: )
 
Gill":u5jq04cj said:
I can't agree that the TV series was a let-down; there again, I should imagine that I wasn't watching it for the same reason as most visitors to this forum. I love Bernard Cornwell's books, especially the Warlord Chronicles about Arthur, but I've always avoided his Sharpe novels. It's very rare that I can take to a book once I've seen it on television; nor can I easily accept the dramatising of a book which I've already enjoyed.

Gill (who is happy to see her name mentioned in this thread repeatedly and with such distinction :lol: )

Gill - seriously suggest that you dip a toe into the Sharpie books. The TV series was complete and utter rubbish (how can a moderate TV budget ever do justice to the events of 18th June 1815, the Battle of Waterloo? Cornwells' descriptive writing is so powerful that you feel as if you're amongst the British lines being pounded by Bonaparte's 'beautiful daughters' or equally in the French lines when being hacked to 'bloody ribbons' by the sabres of the Royal Scots Greys after the charge.
I had awful trouble getting my son Gareth to read anything up to the age of about 17 so I gave him a Sharpie book and suggested he try it...... he now has every one and read them one after another without stopping...can't get his hooter out of a book now, currently into H Potter - Rob
 
engineer one":2ijg1hkb said:
so how do you scroll saw in a straight line, with all those "gills"? :twisted: :lol:

paul :wink:
I can't cut a straight line to save my life - that's why I scroll :lol: !

Harry Potter - now there's a digression that's definitely going to lead to a moderator slipping this thread into the Off-Topic section :) . The days after the Deathly Hallows is released will see me completely incommunicado until I've read it. In fact, I shall be queuing outside my local bookstore at midnight on the day of its release :oops: .

I prefer the Philip Pullman novels (and he's a woodworker) but the Harry Potter stories are still wonderfully entertaining.

Gill
 
woodbloke":cbqubzwt said:
(I have read them all on about a three year cycle since I was about 12 :oops: )
You too? :oops: :lol:

I quite enjoyed the telly Hornblower - eventually. Took a second viewing though. Also don't have as much trouble watching Ioan... :whistle:

woodbloke":cbqubzwt said:
Apparently Forester wrote the books after getting hold of some journals kept by RN officers of the time. I think he was travelling to Panama and decided to put the factual scribblings of the journals into a fictional character based on Nelson but without any of his foibles.
Yeah, that rings a bell. Was that in "Long Before Forty" or his son's (pretty damning) biography? Think it was the Naval Chronicle? Nice reprint of the choicest bits of that by Chatham Publishing fwiw. Also an excellent book of first-hand accounts of the time a bit like the "Forgotten Voices" books who's title totally escapes me. ](*,) Should be around here somewhere but I have a feeling my nephew has it. The old man gets a fairly steady stream of such books for reviewing (yes, it's a family trait except he's short and to the point :roll: ) - makes up for the ones like "Diesel Tugs; A Colour Portfolio" and the "Admiralty List of Radio Signals; Maritime Radio Stations, The Americas, Far East and Oceania" (Volume one of two). No, I don't know how you review such a book either which is probably why he's short and to the point...

woodbloke":cbqubzwt said:
Fight between the 'Lydia' and 'Natividad' has got to be the best sea battle you'll ever read, 'specially when the 'Lydia' is being towed into action by the crew at the boats...make the hair on the back of me neck go rigid :lol: - Rob
Dammit, Rob, I'm going to have to go and re-read that again now. #-o :lol:

Now where'd we put that thread topic...? :oops:

Cheers, Alf

P.S. Sharpe to H Potter is definitely a backwards step... :wink:
 
Alf wrote:
woodbloke wrote:
(I have read them all on about a three year cycle since I was about 12 )

You too?
Alf - as I'm of more mature years than your goodself, I've probably read 'em a few more times than you :p :D

P.S. Sharpe to H Potter is definitely a backwards step...
...more than just a step, leap more like. Gimme cold steel and the crack of a Baker rifle any day over some spotty oik with a magic wand in his hand...



......says Rob who is going out very smartly now to check on the progress of his veneering for the Comp :D
 
I believe that guineas (21 shillings) were popular with employers because it divided nicely into 3 shillings a day in the days before workers were given Sundays off.

The basic tenet of the English class system is that your importance was defined by your family and ancestors. There was little opportunity to change class or "make good" and if you were born poor you stayed poor and didn't live long. Making a good marriage was one way to advance your class, see authors like Jane Austen.

Emigration to the colonies gave hope to many that they could be judged on merit not breeding and make their fortunes.

This contrasts with the American system which is less "who you are" but more "how much can you afford"
 
in part ratter you are right, but up until after the second world war, america was still very class conscious (see The Great Gatsby)

although the rich working man could progress, he found it very difficult to move up into the "500" where the old robber barons like the Vanderbilts had established themselves.

that was one of the reasons so many american women came to europe in the late 1800's to marry english aristocracy who had fallen on hard times.
even our great hero winston churchill came from this background.
:roll:
paul :wink:
 
just read through my latest copy of english heritage mag, and saw an advert for a series of books by allan mallinson about with the main character called matthew hervey.

seem also napoleonic adventures

anyone read them know what they are like??

paul :wink:
 
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