I lost an arm and a leg to a table saw

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I agree with Dennis.

In the world of today the economic establishment wants us to consume and buy new stuff using ever more loaned money. That behaviour increases the BNP to make politicians happy and it lines the pockets of big finance. However the long term results for most of us are poverty and poverty and then some more poverty until we are all beggars roaming the country looking for food.

There is no point in dreaming of the endless consumption capabilities of the 1980-ies or about those of the gentry in extremely stratified societies like USA or Russia. Those days are past now and if they ever return to some part of the population that will happen at the cost of mayority who just get deeper into poverty.
Instead we should focus on what we can do with what we have access to and can afford in reality. We can do a lot if we want. Europe is full of good secondhand tools and machinery that will be scrapped if no new owners turn up. They are there for us to buy. Affordable and fairly easy to find.
 
This is a fascinating and very informed thread, but I think there's also the simple fact that today's stuff is built to a budget to a degree that old stuff wasn't. By the time that budget is big enough that there are no significant engineering compromises, it's beyond the home workshop, and trade workshops don't really use small saws any more - they use big ones. Thus, there are no new, small, uncompromised TS's, at any price. In contrast, old machinery was not so carefully budgeted/compromised, and smaller trade workshops used to be built around 'small' (albeit extended) cabinet saws.
 
I have to say of them all Charnwood are the only ones that don't seem to be excessively bending us over.

Their new W629 10" cast iron TS with sliding carriage actually has an RRP of £679 inc, not £750 as I mentioned, and Yandles has it at £629 inc.

For a 10" TS with sliding carriage thats not bad pricing and much cheaper than anything else on the market.

I can't really see any difference in spec to their W650 which is £200 more expensive.

No reviews yet so will have to see how it holds up in use.
 
BTW when heimlaga says BNP he means GDP or Gross Domestic Product, BNP is swedish for the same term, Bruttonationalprodukt. So not that BNP you brits where thinking of.
 
I just wanted to revisit this briefly because something I have noticed when looking at various saws is historic pricing that is much lower than current pricing.

The SIP 01332 have been around for 10 years. Today it costs £100 inc vat, back in 2005 it cost less than £500. As did its clone the Perform CC10SB (what happened to them?), the iTech clone and the Fox clone.

2005 - new-perform-table-saw-t7249.html

2006 - sip-01332-10-table-saw-t8595.html

2006 - which-table-saw-should-i-go-for-t13210.html

2007 - itech-table-saw-t20955.html

The Sliding carriage option is £450 now, 10 years ago it was £250. In fact in these threads you will see it mentioned of the saw and the sliding carriage being bought together for £600 new.

You will see also in the 3rd thread that the Axminster AW10BSB2 was £599 with the sliding carriage in 2006, its now over £1000.

If I look at this type of table saw in general (cast iron, 10"+) the trend is the same across all products on the market. Xcalubur were much cheaper in mid 2000's than they were a few years ago. It seems around 2009/2010 time the prices shot up largely unnoticed. As a result the used market has shot up. In 2005 you could buy a Wadkin or Startrite for a fraction of the price now. The used market follows the new market. I read a post by a guy that bought a 2 year old SIP 01332 for £165 off Ebay! (I cried at that one).

The exchange rate wasn't much different. The price of cast Iron hasn't quadrupled. Duty is less than it was then. Shipping costs haven't shot up.

There is no reason I can see that a SIP 01332 cost less than half price 10 years ago what it does today apart from blatant profiteering. The same goes for the Axminster AW10BSB2 and the table saw market in general.

For me this shoots down all the arguments here regarding the size of the market and production costs. None of those things have changed significantly in the last 10 years.
 
Inflation surely accounts for a good bit. My salary since 2006 has nearly doubled (though so has my experience and expertise and responsibility), but I'm not much richer than I was then. I notice things are getting more expensive on all fronts, and more people than ever are "working poor", that is they need welfare despite having jobs. I guess the reduction in the consumer base that can afford things like these, leads the businesses to increase individual units to compensate. I don't think we can make things much cheaper in terms of build quality than we already are and we can't squeeze more blood out of the stone that is the chinese worker. We've basically reached the end of the road of diminishing returns.
 
Inflation doesn't effect manufactured consumer goods it mainly relates to natural resources. Quite the opposite is true. Manufactured consumer goods decrease in value over time as production costs come down, hence a 32" tv would have cost you £1000 ten years ago can be bought for less than £200 today. That's a extreme example because the LED TV industry has more R&D, new technologies, improvements in processing and mass production savings than any other industry in the world but the same thing applies on a lesser scale.

The factory that started making these saws 10 years ago would have started small, maybe they made 500 and bought 500 motors in from Shenzhen XYZ motor company and 500 cast iron tops from Nanjing ABC Metalworks. Then it was 1000, then 5000. 5 years later they are pumping out 25,000 a year as they have had 5 years to market, do trade shows, grow the business into new areas, employ new sales people. They they start making their own motors and casting their own tops to cut costs further and so on and so on. Unless the cost of cast iron or sheet steel rises drastically the cost never goes up.

As you say your wages have more than doubled in the last 10 years because you gained experience, got promoted or was given more responsibility. Nobody in the same role in the last 10 years is earning double purely in wage rises. In that time the Consumer Pricing Index has risen 20%. That is to say that across all sectors of the market including housing, services, consumer goods, fuel, entertainment etc prices have generally risen 20% although often most of this is down to fuel and housing. Salaries during that time have risen around 15% on average. But that's an average and senior and CEO level positions make up a massive amount of that number. One CFO salary rise is more than a 1000 average Joe's combined.

All things considered with the cost of manufacture coming down and the average employee costing 10% costs should roughly break even. But even if everything was 20% more expensive I could live with a SIP 01332 costing me £600, but not twice the price it was 10 years ago.

You mention the consumer base has shrunk for consumers that can afford these items, you are right, but it has shrunk because they have doubled in price.
 
Unfortunately it isn't that simple. Though that may not be the case locally in Suffolk because of your proximity to London most Europeans today live in a world of steadily schrinking economy. Wages don't keep up with rising living costs. My average earnings when i work (right now on sick leave) has risen some 20-30% in 10 years. That includes significantly more resposnsibilities and more skills as I went from being an ordinary employee to a freelancer. If I had done the same job now as then my wage would have risen less than 10%. Maybe not at all.

I think Dennis CA is right. We have reached the point of diminishing returns. It would be time to set up a new ecopnomic order based on protectionism.
 
I think there is much more evidence we are being ripped off. I've shown how much lower the prices are from China, and that's my average Joe price, it will be significantly less for the big boys. I've shown how prices were considerably lower then jumped up around 2010. There was no gradual increase as there would be with inflation.
 
We are being ripped off by someone, that much is true...

Edit: And as I said my wage has nearly doubled because of the extra things I now do, but as I also said, inflation and the like has eaten up most of the gains, if I was an ordinary worker doing the same job and only getting the usual index raises, my purchasing power would have lessened.
 
HexusOdy":3549s6h0 said:
I think there is much more evidence we are being ripped off.

It would seem like the time is right for an enterprising chap with a good handle on all the facts to start a saw-importing business, undercutting all the big boys by a good 1/3 of the price and still making a hefty profit margin. Go for it!
 
HexusOdy":3jnzxi46 said:
I think there is much more evidence we are being ripped off. I've shown how much lower the prices are from China, and that's my average Joe price, it will be significantly less for the big boys.

If margins are so high then why are there so few players in the market? I see Axminster, Charnwood and Record as the only ones with a significant presence. If they are making huge profits on the saws they're selling I'd expect to see others wanting a slice of the cake, and competition driving the prices down, but I don't. There must be something significant preventing others from entering the market.
 
We should also figure in that the chinese production cost is not constant but also rising as chinese workers demand more wages and their own inflation etc. etc. I suppose eventually the chinese will start outsourcing jobs to Africa.
 
pcb1962":hju70vv0 said:
HexusOdy":hju70vv0 said:
I think there is much more evidence we are being ripped off. I've shown how much lower the prices are from China, and that's my average Joe price, it will be significantly less for the big boys.

If margins are so high then why are there so few players in the market? I see Axminster, Charnwood and Record as the only ones with a significant presence. If they are making huge profits on the saws they're selling I'd expect to see others wanting a slice of the cake, and competition driving the prices down, but I don't. There must be something significant preventing others from entering the market.

If anyone can explain what it is I'd be happy to hear it. It can't be wages, production costs in China, wages in China, shipping costs, duty etc because it would effect every product made in China, shipped from China and imported. Nothing else has doubled in price the last 10 years.

There are less options for sure. Just from this thread Perform, Fox, Deft and Xcalibur are no longer options. Your choices from new are Charnwood, SIP, Axminster and Record. Small market means its easier to control pricing, but on saying that Charnwood are proving my point. They have the W629 coming out at £629 with sliding carriage, that inline with where prices should be in my opinion, maybe they are the ones trying to buck the trend. And of them all Charnwood are probably the smallest company with least resources.

I cant see anyway the machines cost more from China or UK operations cost more to run. Otherwise every product would cost twice as much as it did 10 years ago.

If you like forget the 01332 and just look at the optional sliding carriage for proof of profiteering. It's just a piece of aluminium. It was £250, it's now £450.
 
What a very interesting and will informed debate! I bought my 01332 3 yrs ago secondhand and am now looking to add the sliding carriage but at the same time I've been looking at new sliding carriage saws. The unexplained price gap definitely does exist and reading this thread this Sunday morning has done little to explain the reason, except for profit.
Personally, I'm ok with profit so I'll end up paying.
Thanks to all who contributed to this very good read.
 
Glad to see I'm not alone in these thoughts. I am a hobby woodworker who will never make a living or return from my tool investments. Paying ~GBP 1,200 for a "premium" saw bench who's reviews all complain about poor dust extraction; blade accuracy issues when raising and lowering the height of the blade and PLASTIC handles is just beyond a joke. The same money in the USA buys a high quality cabinet saw with all the trimmings (steel handles included). Would I pay 500-600 quid for a decent hybrid table saw? Tomorrow. In a heart beat. Unfortunately, there are no decent hybrids in the UK market. (decent in my world means something approaching this). The only option at this price point today is just rubbish by comparison (and has been for years).

Second hand isn't an option for me due to location - there have been almost none within reasonable driving distance of where I live without needing to take a 300 quid ferry ride to collect it (not to mention hire a truck). Nobody in the mainland UK ever seems interested in dealing with couriers when selling second hand either, so I'm out of luck there.

After watching hours of videos from various European woodworkers I have come to the conclusion that I need to continue "making do" and save my hard-earned money and invest in a quality solution. So far I can only see one: Felder/Hammer.

While I could probably get away with getting a Hammer K3 Basic sometime before summer next year, I'm tempted to wait longer again and aim for the C3 31 combination - it looks sweet, but it isn't cheap.

Then I wake up and remember that I have bills to pay, family to visit and holidays that my wife wants to take.

Back to my hand held circular saw it is then.

Cheers

Leigh
 
All the arguments about a smaller market etc are valid but it's highly doubtfull that is the case with all the other goods we buy which are almost without exception much cheaper in the US than here.

That's why my son is taking an empty suitcase with him to Washington next month and why we brought back everything from clothes, cosmetics, electricals and IT goods. I looked at decent cameras made in Japan and the difference was very tempting, it was just warranties that put me off, I did buy a Seiko watch for half the price it is here.

A basic Audi A4 costs £26000 in the UK but £1000 less with higher spec in the US - why? Maybe that's down to tax but a 2016 Nissan 370Z starts at 27600 here and only £22000 in the US - what's all that about?

I've just done a quick comparison with the Nissan Juke I bought for the missus last December, List price came out at around £22000 and a very similar spec in the US at todays price is little more than the same BUT IN DOLLARS. The damn cars are manufactured only 30 miles from where I live.

That's why it's "rip off Britain" and certainly not all down to VAT

Bob
 
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