I know it's the right thing to do, but not feeling happy.

[RossJarvis]

Okay, it's a bit of a long winded moan, but this has stressed me out.

I started a loft conversion job last Monday, helping out a friend, like me who's not been in the trade too long. I hadn't any information before so just started some clearing up, fetching a scaffolding tower etc. I got the first "drawing" that night, which was part of a "proposed" design, not very detailed. I'd picked up that the client's wife seemed a bit unhappy with the performance of the "designer".

Looking at the very scant information on this drawing and checking the loft area I realised the new floor joists weren't going to fit and that what had been assumed to be a load bearing internal partition wall was an original stud wall. I queried this with the "designer", who was hard to get hold of and arranged to meet him on site on Wednesday. By then he'd "spoken" to the engineer and respecified the joists (shallower and wider). He turned up and he suggested using an RSJ instead of relying on the partition wall and said he'd get back to us with the specs for this. After he'd gone we realised this RSJ was going to be directly above a small window on the outside wall and wondered how the ****** it was going to be supported. By now I was wondering where the working drawings had got to and then found out that no-one knew if Building Control had given approval, which it now seems it hadn't.

I said to the client that I still didn't have enough info to order the beams and timbers in and that I was having serious doubts as to whether I'd have enough info to do anything. There was no information on trimming around chimneys, or anything in fact. No engineers calculations, specifications for fixings, the "escape windows" were one of the few things with a dimension on and were shown as being above maximum permitted height.

The client decided to stop the job for the time being and emailed the "designer". He in turn wonders why we can't order in materials and says working drawings will be prepared soon and that information has been supplied to building control.

The upshot is, I've effectively stopped the job and me and 3 other guys have no work, having planned in 9 weeks for this. Personally I think my friend's taken on a job a bit beyond his capabilities and that somehow the client's either rushing the "designer", or the "designer" is just not up to it.

I've now had two sleepless nights and just want to forget the whole thing, but I feel responsible to the clients, who seem really nice and responsible for 3 other guys with families who have no work. I know it's the right thing to do but I'm feeling awful about it.

 

[Bigbud78]

If your friend is the one dealing with the client then surely he should have had a good set of drawings to price it ?

I can't say from a builders point of view as I work for a structural consultancy, but if we were instructed on a job like this we would have had to visit site and would have provided at least a tender set of drawings with sizes. I really doubt a qualified engineer has had any real involvement and your most likely dealing with an architectural technician trying to make some money on the side.

Someone is telling porkies and they should have had a full set off drawings with all information, your friend should have realised this when pricing the job and should not have agreed to start without it. I'm afraid your friend has let you down by not doing his due diligence in ensuring the job was ready and now your paying for it.

Sorry

 

[skipdiver]

You'd feel a lot more awful if something went seriously wrong with the job during the build or after completion. I have been in the same situation on a loft conversion and i walked. I wouldn't touch one unless there were detailed drawings approved by building control. It is possible to do them on a building notice but i would want BC there from day one in that situation. I would also expect to have structural calcs signed off by an engineer and again approved by BC. There is too much risk and too much that can go wrong to work from the back of a *** packet type drawing. It's tough when all your plans go out of the window and you find yourself kicking your heels; even tougher when there are others depending on the job but you did the right thing. If the clients really want this doing, they will get someone more professional on board.

 

[RossJarvis]

Someone is telling porkies and they should have had a full set off drawings with all information, your friend should have realised this when pricing the job and should not have agreed to start without it. I'm afraid your friend has let you down by not doing his due diligence in ensuring the job was ready and now your paying for it.

Sorry

Exactly what I thought, thanks. I think he would have just carried on and who knows what would have happened?

 

[skipdiver]

It seems that you are a conscientious type and are doing the worrying for your mate. It's not your job and not your fault, so put it down to experience and move on. I've found that the easiest way to fall out with mates is to work with them.

 

[Fitzroy]

Don't do business with friends or family! Bro still owes me alot of money but hard to address without screwing our relationship.

 

[RobinBHM]

I think it is a very common problem in domestic construction.

delays on site due to lack of drawings, strctural calcs etc are a pain, but the only solution is to get the correct information before starting. Really your friend should have had his ducks in a line well before the start date to avoid site labour having no work.

Building control plan checking is a good starting point.

There are so many complications with building control regulations on loft conversions, structural, insulation, fire egress etc etc its risky to start with complete drawings. Even then unforseen issues can arise. Experienced builders often have a structural engineer they can call on for a favour on to resolve issues quickly.

I would see if your friend can get the drawings and steel work arranged as quick as possible and re-schedule a start date in a few days.

If you want the buidling regs done maybe get these submitted to an independant like BBS who will allow work to start in 7 days

Construction needs 3 things: information, materials, labour. Its often possible to get 2 out of 3

 

[rafezetter]

My father bought his current house in the early 90's on the back of a "good" inspection etc, but obviously cannot see what is behind the walls. The house had been owned by an older couple and had not had much if any work done on it for decades, but otherwise seemed sound.

Fast forward 4 years when cracks started appearing in the plaster in the loft conversion, and they got bigger within months.

He called in a structural engineer who stripped all the internal coverings walls and ceiling and found, to his horror, Dad says the words were "colourful", that there was no loadbearing supports for the roof, they had all been cut away to make the roof conversion space and that the roof was just sitting on the walls, and had slowly but surely been crushing / pushing them apart for decades and had reached point of failure. I should state that the house is large, with concrete tiles, a significant weight.

Some hasty shoring was implemented - bars right through house; loft and 2nd floor - until plans could be made to fix this major problem.

What was deemed necessary were rsj's either side, BIG ones - they are around 2.5ft (760mm) tall and 48ft (15m) long with two sistered up each side, bolted together. The roof had to be stripped and removed, and the work took months.

The pricetag was over £150,000, half the cost of the house back then.

Thankfully Dad was able to get a majority portion of it back via insurance - he ended up having to sue in court to get it, but get it he did.

So yeah, if you are in any doubt, walking away is by far the best option until better information becomes available.

 

[RossJarvis]

So yeah, if you are in any doubt, walking away is by far the best option until better information becomes available.

It's one of those things where the more I looked at it the more something wasn't right :shock: . Initially there was just not enough information, then I realised that the information there didn't seem safe or right. E.g. the joists specified were C24 and C16, for the same joists? I don't think the stairway met fire regs as it didn't immediately go outside, it ended up to an inside room, The joists wouldn't fit without cutting most of the ends away on the wall plate, Proposed support was wrong and the hastily re-thought solution seems wrong, no information on how to mount the ends of the RSJs. Steel column supporting 2x4m RSJs to go on partition wall immediately above doorway, etc, etc, etc. However Christmas is coming, the van insurance is due, I've just gone into overdraft, so the temptation to just carry on is very high .

 

[RossJarvis]

So yeah, if you are in any doubt, walking away is by far the best option until better information becomes available.

It's one of those things where the more I looked at it the more something wasn't right :shock: . Initially there was just not enough information, then I realised that the information there didn't seem safe or right. E.g. the joists specified were C24 and C16, for the same joists? I don't think the stairway met fire regs as it didn't immediately go outside, it ended up to an inside room, The joists wouldn't fit without cutting most of the ends away on the wall plate, Proposed support was wrong and the hastily re-thought solution seems wrong, no information on how to mount the ends of the RSJs. Steel column supporting 2x4m RSJs to go on partition wall immediately above doorway, etc, etc, etc. However Christmas is coming, the van insurance is due, I've just gone into overdraft, so the temptation to just carry on is very high .

 

[tomatwark]

I would walk away, you have done the right thing, as if you carried on you may not have got paid as the problems came to light during the work.

Ring around other builders and see if they have work, everyone wants things finished for Christmas so they may glad of an extra set of hands.

 

[skipdiver]

I would walk away, you have done the right thing, as if you carried on you may not have got paid as the problems came to light during the work.

Ring around other builders and see if they have work, everyone wants things finished for Christmas so they may glad of an extra set of hands.

This. The run up to Christmas was always my busiest time of year. I could never understand the desperation of some people to get some doors hung or new flooring down "in time for Christmas".