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I don't get why all plane irons aren't laminated?

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Vann

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I guess that laminating a thin layer of "good" steel to a backing layer of mild steel, using a high quality glue (epoxy?) would work. The only problem I see would be in grinding the bevel - too much heat would cause the epoxy bond to soften (i.e. much lower heat than required to blue the iron would soften the bond).

If I were you I wouldn't try aluminium for the backing - at least not until I'd tested the theory with a mild steel backing - it's a step too far IMHO.

As for eliminating the cap-iron: you'd need a series of yoke slots down the iron or else total usable iron would be too short.

Cheers, Vann.
 

Benchwayze

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I didn't say 'gluing' Vann. I was referring to the method where the two steels are forged together whilst hot.

Can't say I trust epoxy or aluminium quite that much!

John :D
 

Vann

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Hi John,

Sorry, I was comment on ali's original suggestion, rather than your post.

Cheers, Vann.
 

matthewwh

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Hi Ali,

In 1855 Henry Bessemer invented the blast furnace which turned the lengthy, inaccurate and expensive process of making steel into a fast, accurate and cheap one. This was the change that first made it cheaper to produce the whole blade out of good steel than laminate it.

Since then the cost of producing steel has fallen and the cost of skilled labour has risen - which is why hand forged Clifton plane irons are dearer than ones lasered out of gauge plate.

There are still Smiths about who make laminated blades, most of them producing bespoke knives where the market is prepared to bear the cost of their skills.
 

bugbear

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matthewwh":132jf84e said:
Hi Ali,

In 1855 Henry Bessemer invented the blast furnace which turned the lengthy, inaccurate and expensive process of making steel into a fast, accurate and cheap one. This was the change that first made it cheaper to produce the whole blade out of good steel than laminate it.

Since then the cost of producing steel has fallen and the cost of skilled labour has risen - which is why hand forged Clifton plane irons are dearer than ones lasered out of gauge plate.

There are still Smiths about who make laminated blades, most of them producing bespoke knives where the market is prepared to bear the cost of their skills.

Samurai/"Smooth Cut" are factory making laminated Bailey blades.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/samurai-japa ... prod22303/

(those used to be cheap - what happened?!)

BugBear
 

Jacob

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bugbear":3hrb8b45 said:
matthewwh":3hrb8b45 said:
Hi Ali,

In 1855 Henry Bessemer invented the blast furnace which turned the lengthy, inaccurate and expensive process of making steel into a fast, accurate and cheap one. This was the change that first made it cheaper to produce the whole blade out of good steel than laminate it.

Since then the cost of producing steel has fallen and the cost of skilled labour has risen - which is why hand forged Clifton plane irons are dearer than ones lasered out of gauge plate.

There are still Smiths about who make laminated blades, most of them producing bespoke knives where the market is prepared to bear the cost of their skills.

Samurai/"Smooth Cut" are factory making laminated Bailey blades.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/samurai-japa ... prod22303/

(those used to be cheap - what happened?!)

BugBear
I bought one a bit back - I thought it was £20 ish.
They probably are a bit faster to hone by hand but I haven't noticed any real difference from the normal Record blade.
Pointless really. They are just cashing in on the enthusiasts market. You'd have to put in many hours of work side by side to notice any meaningful difference. No point in paying £40 to replace a blade which came free with your plane, unless there is a tangible quick return.
 

bugbear

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Jacob":117telow said:
bugbear":117telow said:
matthewwh":117telow said:
Hi Ali,

In 1855 Henry Bessemer invented the blast furnace which turned the lengthy, inaccurate and expensive process of making steel into a fast, accurate and cheap one. This was the change that first made it cheaper to produce the whole blade out of good steel than laminate it.

Since then the cost of producing steel has fallen and the cost of skilled labour has risen - which is why hand forged Clifton plane irons are dearer than ones lasered out of gauge plate.

There are still Smiths about who make laminated blades, most of them producing bespoke knives where the market is prepared to bear the cost of their skills.

Samurai/"Smooth Cut" are factory making laminated Bailey blades.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/samurai-japa ... prod22303/

(those used to be cheap - what happened?!)

BugBear
I bought one a bit back - I thought it was £20 ish.
They probably are a bit faster to hone by hand but I haven't noticed any real difference from the normal Record blade.

When I bought one in (google) 1999 (!), I found that it took a much finer edge than the even the best (laminated) Record blades, and held it longer.

This is what you'd expect from harder steel. It's also easy to hone, (since the bevel is partially soft metal). Flattening and polishing the back revealed just how hard the edge-steel is.

On a historical note, Record went back to their laminated blades in their short lived cs88 model, and Roger Buse did a "tuned bailey" plane with a laminated blade in the mid 80's.

BugBear
 

Vann

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Jacob":1lj5yx3w said:
Pointless really. .... No point in paying £40 to replace a blade which came free with your plane, unless there is a tangible quick return.
Or you've bought a second hand plane with pitted/worn-out iron that needs replacing anyway...

Cheers, Vann.
 

Jacob

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Vann":3pwxitfe said:
Jacob":3pwxitfe said:
Pointless really. .... No point in paying £40 to replace a blade which came free with your plane, unless there is a tangible quick return.
Or you've bought a second hand plane with pitted/worn-out iron that needs replacing anyway...

Cheers, Vann.
Buy another one - still cheaper than a smoothcut blade.

The thing about "holding an edge better/worse" I've never been able to find. If I sharpen any two blades the same way and for long enough then they seem always to be equally sharp, at first at least.
What I have noticed (I think) is that harder edges will chip sooner. Quite quickly in fact - but sometimes leaving hardly any visible sign but just that slight feeling of fine ridges when you slide a finger over the wood.
I just verified this once again, this morning. I've been wondering which of two 5 1/2 planes to sell. One has an old Millers Falls blade . It was chipped when I got it so I ground it back and it was obviously harder than a standard Record blade. But it chipped again in normal use on a hard bit of sycamore. Very fine chips. It's gotta go!
 

Jacob

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Benchwayze":eegb4kxd said:
Why not just buy a new blade Jacob? A sharp 5 1/2 is always useful to have at hand. :?:
Yes alright then. Except if you buy a 2nd plane you can probably dump the first one on ebay and get your money back.
 

Benchwayze

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Jacob":38x6o7sn said:
Benchwayze":38x6o7sn said:
Why not just buy a new blade Jacob? A sharp 5 1/2 is always useful to have at hand. :?:
Yes alright then. Except if you buy a 2nd plane you can probably dump the first one on eBay and get your money back.


Ahhh! I thought you were considering selling the plane, because the iron was not too good. :oops:
 

Jacob

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Benchwayze":3khq7p10 said:
Jacob":3khq7p10 said:
Benchwayze":3khq7p10 said:
Why not just buy a new blade Jacob? A sharp 5 1/2 is always useful to have at hand. :?:
Yes alright then. Except if you buy a 2nd plane you can probably dump the first one on eBay and get your money back.


Ahhh! I thought you were considering selling the plane, because the iron was not too good. :oops:
Sorry yes, crossed wires. I am selling the plane. I only want one 5 1/2. I'm doing a bit of a clear out, some 5s as well, and other stuff.
 

Benchwayze

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NP Jacob!

I have a few 5s I ought to offload. Stanleys and Records. It's just getting around to sorting them out! :?
 

János

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Hello,

The fabrication of hardenable steel was a very laborious process before the invention of modern steel furnaces (Siemens, Bessamer etc.). The iron was hand-forged, and heated in coals to absorb carbon, and produce useable steel. The work of XVIIIth century British inventors, like the Cranage brothers and Henry Cort made possible the production of larger batches of quality iron and steel, but cheap cast steels become available only in the second half of the XIXth century. Laminating, forge-welding or even hard soldering steel to an iron backing or tang was a common means of sparing costly steel.
As a byproduct of lamination, the blades edge could be hardened to a higher hardness, over 60 HRC, without danger of breakage or cracks. In the XXth century the new developments of metallurgy created the different kinds of high alloy tool steels. These steels combined hardness with toughness: laminating a molybdenum or wolfram steel to soft iron would be insane.
Well made modern irons are as good as laminated carbon steel ones. As far as I know that, laminated blades are still produced in Germany and Austria for traditional wooden planes.
And a word about cap/breaker/double irons: the purpose of this invention is the improvement of cutting performance and surface quality left by the blade, through altering/modifying the cutting geometry. A properly set double iron behaves like a higher pitched blade, but the cutting force remains almost the same. Improved rigidity is a mere bonus.

Have a nice day,

János
 
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