Jacob
New Luddism. Wake up and resist.
Listened to the science.
Johnson was derisive at the start and carried on being dismissive and behind the curve. Ditto Trump.
Both now recognised as world class poor performers.
How would you rate the UK's handling of this pandemic?
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Johnson was derisive at the start and carried on being dismissive and behind the curve. Ditto Trump.
Both now recognised as world class poor performers.
Which science?
Stanleymonkey
Established Member
I listened in on a briefing mid December. Attendees were asked not to share the charts and graphs. The London wide statistics then were deeply worrying. But the government threatened local authorities with legal action when they tried to close schools early. I would have shut them down and created a three week break over Christmas. That is not hindsight talking, it was quite obvious then, many families intended to take kids out early and self isolate before meeting up with family it wouldn't have hurt their education!
Boris Johnson openly mocked Keir Starmer about 'cancelling Christmas' and then did it himself a few days later. I'm sorry but this isn't really about difficult decisions and unknown territory. U-turns like that show he is not fully aware of the big picture or is more concenred about losing votes than public health.
It is very poor management and government.
selectortone
Still waking up not dead in the morning
Credible voices in the wilderness have been warning governments for decades that a pandemic of some sort was inevitable ultimately. And here we are.
It is one of a government's jobs to prepare for eventualities like these.
They did prepare, they held a comprehensive war games for a pandemic a few years ago and implemented all the recommendations. The problem was the war games were for a flu pandemic as that was deemed most likely by the scientists.
There are known unknowns and there are unknown unknowns. C19 is an unknown unknown, very difficult to prepare for that, you can't prepare for all eventualities, too expensive. You don't tow a car behind your car in case it breaks down do you?
Terrytpot
Established Member
Like many of you I don't think it really matters which party were "at the helm" for this crisis as none of them have been vociferous in opposing any of the decisions made. Call me a cynic but I would imagine that whoever is in control will be heavily reliant on their "advisors" and civil servants and will be steered towards the safest career/party decisions, irrespective of the impact on the general populace. Blame aside, I don't envy anyone in a position to determine a policy for this when all the information they've had to base it upon is time sensitive in that it's only useful if you use it before you get told about it, and by the time you are told, it's too late to act upon but you have to be seen to be doing something! It all strikes me as being a bit like an episode of "Yes Minister" but not quite as funny.
Jacob
New Luddism. Wake up and resist.
Exercise Cygnus for a start - and then their own scientific/medical experts, the universities and academics, etc etc. Mistakes were made, but made far worse by Johnson's dismissal of the whole issue at the start, sounding much like Trump and finally performing even worse than Trump.
They are both chancers, jeering from the sidelines, saying they knew best, just winging it and hoping to take the credit if everything turned out OK. But it didn't.
RobinBHM
Established Member
Did you see Johnson's speech in Greenwich in Feb / March....basically he said "we won't lockdown we will keep our economy open and profit whilst other countries are shut".
Well that worked out well
It's interesting the worst performing countries in the world are run by right wing populist governments: USA, UK, Brazil.
Some the best performing ones are run by women...NZ
RobinBHM
Established Member
The real science, not that GBD hogwash.
Jacob
New Luddism. Wake up and resist.
A masterpiece of arrogance and stupidity. "Bizarre autarkic rhetoric" indeed! Guess who he had in mind as the "supercharged champion"
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Read my post above, I covered exercise Cygnus (not by name). If you watch this weeks Spectator TV, Jeremey Hunt is interviewed and talks about it as well.
Terry - Somerset
Established Member
Comparisons should be made between broadly similar countries - eg: comparison with NZ is pointless. It has 5m vs 65m population and 6% of the population density.
Cherry picking statistics to prove whatever point you want is the behaviour of politicians and the media - not the product of useful thought. We need to be clear what metrics are appropriate.
Many of the problems originate in decisions and value judgements made decades ago. We have spent little on contingency planning and resourcing yet £40bn a year on Defence. Both are there to defend the public.
The government has unquestionably made some mistakes - in particular delaying the first lockdown when cases were doubling every few days.
Education issues have been handled incompetently.
They have also done some things well - eg: nightingale hospital construction, vaccine development and roll out, financial support for business and individuals (albeit with some gaps).
A cool review of countries closest to the UK shows many of the problems in the UK have been mirrored in mainland Europe. Test and trace has been generally ineffective. Deaths in care homes have been similar to the UK. Lack of PPE is not just a UK problem.
Indeed the only comparable European country to have performed materially better than the UK is Germany. They did this by locking down a few days earlier (good fortune or judgement?). They are now contending with precisely the same problems as the UK - mutated virus aside)
We also blame ministers for failures in their area of responsibility despite that fact that senior civil servants are largely deficient - eg:
What I particularly object to is using selective bits of data to draw politically motivated conclusions - whether the context is "Boris is rubbish" or "didn't we do well".
Cherry picking statistics to prove whatever point you want is the behaviour of politicians and the media - not the product of useful thought. We need to be clear what metrics are appropriate.
Many of the problems originate in decisions and value judgements made decades ago. We have spent little on contingency planning and resourcing yet £40bn a year on Defence. Both are there to defend the public.
The government has unquestionably made some mistakes - in particular delaying the first lockdown when cases were doubling every few days.
Education issues have been handled incompetently.
They have also done some things well - eg: nightingale hospital construction, vaccine development and roll out, financial support for business and individuals (albeit with some gaps).
A cool review of countries closest to the UK shows many of the problems in the UK have been mirrored in mainland Europe. Test and trace has been generally ineffective. Deaths in care homes have been similar to the UK. Lack of PPE is not just a UK problem.
Indeed the only comparable European country to have performed materially better than the UK is Germany. They did this by locking down a few days earlier (good fortune or judgement?). They are now contending with precisely the same problems as the UK - mutated virus aside)
We also blame ministers for failures in their area of responsibility despite that fact that senior civil servants are largely deficient - eg:
- Public Health England have a specific responsibility for contingency planning - a task they complely failed.
- I think Gavin Williamson has acquitted himself very poorly, but he was very poorly advised by Ofqual and Dept of Education.
What I particularly object to is using selective bits of data to draw politically motivated conclusions - whether the context is "Boris is rubbish" or "didn't we do well".
I think they've done wonderfully.
It's a balancing act for a right wing government in a western developed nation with an aging voter demographic.
Basically they need to appear to have cared, as most do not warm to heartlessness when it's too visible, but, on the other hand, really, what do the most vulnerable (to covid, or indeed, any form of vulnerability) really contribute to the accumulation of wealth?
I think theyve probably gone a little overboard on helping out their mates (eg Handcock's ex landlord, etc) but we are far enough away from an election cycle that that will probably be forgotten about when voting comes about again.
So, yes, I think theyve done well.
It's a balancing act for a right wing government in a western developed nation with an aging voter demographic.
Basically they need to appear to have cared, as most do not warm to heartlessness when it's too visible, but, on the other hand, really, what do the most vulnerable (to covid, or indeed, any form of vulnerability) really contribute to the accumulation of wealth?
I think theyve probably gone a little overboard on helping out their mates (eg Handcock's ex landlord, etc) but we are far enough away from an election cycle that that will probably be forgotten about when voting comes about again.
So, yes, I think theyve done well.
Lons
Established Member
This might work to get things moving
Jacob
New Luddism. Wake up and resist.
Yep. Gotta look on the bright side. When it's all over the dead will tell no tales and their legacees will be having much more fun than they expected!
Have you see how they drive though?! No way I want them coming at me with a needle, they'll come in too fast, swerve, smash into my arm with the wrong hand and then jab me in the eye.
I despise the conservatives and Boris, but as a life long labour person I honestly think they would have been as equally clueless especially after the Corbyn, useless pineapple (Didn’t use a fruit word - seems forum does not like bad words even though he’s a foul language alert ), debacle over the last few years.
Hindsights great but I really don’t care about the blame game, we’re facing enough rubbish with this brexit farce.
What I do want as a witch hunt is to find those people in positions of government responsibility who knowingly profited from other peoples loss and misery. Those who put there own careers and bank balances ahead of our parents and children. Those people I want nailing.
Will it happen, no, but I can at least dream.
Hindsights great but I really don’t care about the blame game, we’re facing enough rubbish with this brexit farce.
What I do want as a witch hunt is to find those people in positions of government responsibility who knowingly profited from other peoples loss and misery. Those who put there own careers and bank balances ahead of our parents and children. Those people I want nailing.
Will it happen, no, but I can at least dream.
As the man in charge before during and after, he is not exactly the best source to turn to for an unbiased appraisal of how he dealt with the lessons that should have been learned.
The one promoted by the approved political party.
And asteroids, and UFOs and volcanoes (OK, that's us over here), etc. If the government spent enough money to be prepared for all of them, them same whiners going at it now would complain about the wasted money and resources when "you could be giving that money to people who need it right now".
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