How square is your square

[MikeG.]

........The short answer is if you want precision, put more money down IMO...........

I profoundly disagree.

What spending more money achieves is a greater likelihood of precision, not a greater precision.* So what? If you're sensible enough to check when buying, how many squares you look through before finding a square one is irrelevant. I bought an absolutely spot-on square for my son in law a few weeks ago for £8 in Homebase. It was the third one I checked. If I was spending £108, I might have only needed to check 2. Is it £100 well spent to save checking one square?

*Your £108 square, which is 90 degrees, is exactly as accurate as my £8 square, which is also 90 degrees. If it's accurate, it's accurate, whether you paid a kings ransom for it or not.

 

[Jacob]

Bahco good, and cheap.
Anything much bigger than a 12" combi is a bit useless anyway - the bigger it is the greater the possible error due to mishandling, dust, etc etc. You have to check by other means.
Long parallel lines e.g. shelf housings are best done with dividers from a starter base line - if you tried a long square for each line you get user error; drawer runners not parallel - drawers sticking etc
T squares work on a drawing board mainly because the user gets used to unconsciously making corrections as he goes - the beginner, relying on accuracy of his kit, finds that on a large drawn rectangle his corners don't always meet! Similarly with woodwork.

 

[transatlantic]

There is no reason why manfacturers cannot create a reasonably accurate square (visible to the eye).

I just don't understand how you can produce a 6" engineering square that is 1mm out? .. that's crazy.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the manfacturing process is surely as simple as putting two pieces of metal in a jig (which is absolutely square), drilling for rods, and securing? ... how can that go wrong?

 

[SMALMALEKI]

Short while ago I thought I’d lost my Starrett 6 inch square and decided to look at 5he new Axi Precision 6 inch hobbies. At Axi there were 4 on the shelf. I’d gone tooled up to check, and I found 3 of them ridiculously and unacceptably inaccurate, a d 1 that was ok. All of them had sharp and rough castings and they were screaming at me to put them down. Superficially they looked like the Starrett ones but the build quality was rubbish. I thought that I would buy another Starrett.! When I took these 4 Axi ones back to the display shelf I noticed an eye wateringly expensive American jobie and that checked out to be as perfect as I could detect. Next to that was a Bahco cheap as chips aluminium alloy stocked square. I checked 4 of these and every one was perfect on both sides of the blade and also when the blade was removed and reversed in the stock. I bought one of those. A couple of months after this experience my “lost” Starrett turned up. (hammer)

The stray Starrett can be taken off your hand.

 

[ED65]

Maybe it's worth mentioning that not all squares are made to be square on both edges of the blade? Some trad try squares are guaranteed square on the inside only.

 

[ED65]

Combination squares can normally be adjusted, search YouTube videos for “combination square adjustment”

Also worth mentioning I guess, all squares can be adjusted to be more square, regardless of type or the material(s) they're made from.

Any all-metal square and traditional carpenter's squares were traditionally adjusted by filing the blade, often/usually by drawfiling (moving the file sideways). It can also be done by abrading on a flat surface covered in abrasive, similar to lapping a plane sole, but filing will usually be faster if you're using a suitable file. This can be done on both the inside and outside edges although it's easier on the outside.

 

[shed9]

........The short answer is if you want precision, put more money down IMO...........

I profoundly disagree.

What spending more money achieves is a greater likelihood of precision, not a greater precision.* So what? If you're sensible enough to check when buying, how many squares you look through before finding a square one is irrelevant. I bought an absolutely spot-on square for my son in law a few weeks ago for £8 in Homebase. It was the third one I checked. If I was spending £108, I might have only needed to check 2. Is it £100 well spent to save checking one square?

*Your £108 square, which is 90 degrees, is exactly as accurate as my £8 square, which is also 90 degrees. If it's accurate, it's accurate, whether you paid a kings ransom for it or not.

When you buy a precision tool you are paying for precision, not the better chance of it actually being precise in an open skeet shoot. They are built to tolerance and checked before being sent out the door, that's what you are paying for.

Yes, you will occasionally luck out and get a cheap square that is square, but an £8 square is not going to stay square for long whereas a precision tool will. You're not paying for out of the box squareness, you are paying for long term longevity. I have Starrett and Moore and Wright equipment that has been with me for decades, cheap box store squares don't factor into that equation at all.

That all said, as I mentioned up there ^, this is woodworking and there is a diminishing return to what level of precision people need relevant to their work.

I'd also add that the squares I proposed are not that expensive. Yes the Bridge City and Incra start at £56 and £80 respectively but Starrett offers a whole range at reasonable cost and Moore and Wright and the Trend M3 are at the £30 mark.

 

[Bodgers]

I think I have just got lucky or something with my squares as I haven't really had any issues with cheap or more expensive squares.

The cheap combo squares can arrive a bit out from the box but they can be corrected (as pointed out).

I think the cheap ones are just more prone to go out over time as materials and manufacturing tolerances are not quite as good.

Like Mike G said you don't have to spend a lot of money for square.

Here is a £6 Chinese made starrett metal try-square which I found to be perfectly square for woodworking:

https://youtu.be/rzszfdA_JX8

Workshop Heaven here in the UK also sell these, so they can't be that bad...



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[MikeG.]

........ an £8 square is not going to stay square for long whereas a precision tool will.........

Oh for goodness sake. Far too many broad statements. I've had a cheapie for over 30 years that is 100%. It hasn't changed at all. Look, I don't give a damn if you want to waste money on pointlessly expensive kit, but don't try to justify it to me by making stuff up.

 

[Distinterior]

I have a set of 4 "Engineer" workshop squares from Axminster. They came & I store them in their own storage case.

https://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-w ... set-700113

As far as I can accurately tell, they are Square. I've never had any issue with any noticeable inaccuracies using them and I checked them all out of there storage box with a Digital angle finder and they all read 90 degrees....

 

[Jacob]

How do you check the digital angle finder?

 

[sammy.se]

How do you check the digital angle finder?

With your square ;-)

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[sammy.se]

How do you check the digital angle finder?

With your square ;-)

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Presumably the same method - draw two lines.

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[SMALMALEKI]

Unfortunately there is no shop near me and I have to drive to Axminster ( three hours round trip). Most of my shopping is online, so it is not possible to check.

Regards

Your profile says Derby, two shops that I know in derby are Jaymac on London Road and Protrade on Ascot Drive, there must be B&Q, Homebase, Wickes and the like as well.

Thank you so much for the info. I have given up looking for tools in B&Q and other home depot shops but I will check the other two.

 

[SMALMALEKI]

I have Axminster engineers square which is still out by a small margin.

 

[memzey]

Squareness of squares = the new sharpening thread. In other news; Brexit. Or maybe not...

 

[Bodgers]

I have Axminster engineers square which is still out by a small margin.

What margin?

Show us a picture

 

[scooby]

I'm in need of a new combination square, think I'll go for a bahco due to already owning quite a few sandvik/bahco tools. I used to have a Rabone combination square that I found in my grandads garage. Absolutely spot on and build quality was excellent. Unfortunately, I lost it a while ago #-o Recently got a couple of cheap engineers squares (3 inch Planet and a 6 inch Faithfull)..havent checked them yet

 

[Yojevol]

Since contributing to this thread a couple of days ago, I thought I would take another look at my offending 4" Ax..... square. I put a straight edge along the stock, touching at both ends and held it up to the light. This is my attempt to photograph the problem:-

The gap at the blade end of the stock is 0.014mm (feeler gauge measurement):-

this amounts to an out of squareness of 1.2º.

I had a close look at it to see how the square was made. Studying the finishing grinding and polishing marks it looks as though the blade is assembled and riveted into a slot in the stock with it protruding slightly from the outside face. This face and the protruding bit of blade is then ground to be square with the outside edge of the blade. They then attempt to do something similar with the inside stock face. But, there is a problem - the blade is in the way, so they grind it across the face. That leaves the little bit of stock adjacent to the blade to get square. They obviously hadn't mastered that operation when it was manufactured. Maybe they're better these days.

 

[lurker]

I have a 6" engineers square, not sure where I aquired it nor what brand it is.
I checked it at work to nuclear engineering QA standards.
This is now never used but sits in a drawer, it's purpose is to check my umpteen other squares, to be honest I have never had any problems with anything I have bought, some of the rougher ones might be a tad out but as they are used for rough work (1st fix joinery and the like).

The engineer in me is uncomfortable with combination squares, I have expensive but 40 year old ones but rarely use them. I also have a cheap Rolston one ( I bought it for parts) that is spot on.