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Homemade cyclone dust collector collapsing

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Cooper

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Inspired by a coment by Fester. I had a go at making one using a fermentation bin, I had lying around. It worked brilliantly until the hose blocked, the bin collapsed spliting down one side. I sealed the split, inside and out with gaffer tape and pushed on old builders bucket into the bin to reinforce it. I cut a 30mm hole in the lid for a pressure release valve which I knocked up from ply with a scrap spring, using a bit of foam wallpaper underlay as a seal. It works fine now collecting dust from the lathe but when I want to vacuum shavings I get blockages in the hose, which came from a scrapped Dyson. I used 1 1/4" PVC waste pipe and connectors that I had for the connections. This is really too narrow and shavings can easily build up and block the hose. All this said I'm really pleased with it as its capacity is twice that of the Henry which drives it and much easier to empty. The pressure release doesn't leak but works when the hose is blocked. If I were to make it again, had a different hose and 1 1/2" fittings I think it would be much better.
 

LambCrafter

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I had the same problem - I just made a box about 40cm cube from OSB with a cased lid that had the cyclone mounted on it - all the joints sealed with caulk, draught excluder on the lid and over-centre clamps. Works a treat.
View attachment 107518
Hi @robgul - Is there a specific reason the cyclone is mounted off-centre on the box lid? Space-saving?
 

paulrbarnard

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Inspired by a coment by Fester. I had a go at making one using a fermentation bin, I had lying around. It worked brilliantly until the hose blocked, the bin collapsed spliting down one side. I sealed the split, inside and out with gaffer tape and pushed on old builders bucket into the bin to reinforce it. I cut a 30mm hole in the lid for a pressure release valve which I knocked up from ply with a scrap spring, using a bit of foam wallpaper underlay as a seal. It works fine now collecting dust from the lathe but when I want to vacuum shavings I get blockages in the hose, which came from a scrapped Dyson. I used 1 1/4" PVC waste pipe and connectors that I had for the connections. This is really too narrow and shavings can easily build up and block the hose. All this said I'm really pleased with it as its capacity is twice that of the Henry which drives it and much easier to empty. The pressure release doesn't leak but works when the hose is blocked. If I were to make it again, had a different hose and 1 1/2" fittings I think it would be much better.
I have a realy puny bin from the local HW store on mine and just put some internal bracing in it. Does the job pretty well.
tempImagez0z7u4.jpg
 

Robbo3

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I said that putting a PRV to stop container collapse is a bad cludge, poor design, bad choice, and shows that who ever puts one in is badly advised or incompetent.

putting in a PRV to stop a suck device
getting damaged from too low/no airflow is a completely different situation and an appropriate use of a PRV but placement of a PRV in the catchment bin is wrong and those advocating that are either uneducated or lazy. Correct placement, if you have a need to add a PRV, is upstream of the cyclone.

Note LPHV systems are completely different and nothing to do with the present topic (sure the both suck dust)
I stand by my original post as you have just argued two opposites.
End of discussion for me as you are now personalising it.
 

Sachakins

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And the PRV is in the right place between the cyclone and the vac not in the dust bin.
Yep, that's why I always show this video for cyclone queries, very good solution. If you really want to delve into dust extractor, cyclone, impeller and motor sizing, then search for Bill Pentz, he takes it to a whole new level.
 

sometimewoodworker

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Yep, that's why I always show this video for cyclone queries, very good solution. If you really want to delve into dust extractor, cyclone, impeller and motor sizing, then search for Bill Pentz, he takes it to a whole new level.
I hadn’t watched the video when you first posted it. The design is good to excellent. The only improvements I could see making would be to use smooth internal flexible pipe and if possible (it isn’t if you need the smallest footprint) reduce the number of right angle bends.

The design has covered almost every point. Bill Pentz’s site is here and was the one I used together with a Clear Vue Mini that is referenced from there when I got my cyclone. I didn’t need to build in a PRV into the first drum as I put reenforcement in.

I may well get a big drum, if I do it will either be an oil drum or I will add enough reenforcement to a plastic drum.
 

TominDales

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Hello,
I have a 1.5hp Charnwood w680 dust collector which is then connected to my cyclone seperator. This is via a 2.5m flexible hose from extract to cyclone it is 50mm diameter. The cyclone is connected to a 220litre plastic barrel with screw on airtight lid. The cyclone then feeds out to a 50mm 2.5m flexible hose which is then positioned near my lathe. Everytime I turn on the extractor the barrel starts to collapse under the pressure/ suction?? Any help? Is the cyclone too small or flexible hose to narrow?
Hi Moller,
I hope we haven't confused you with a blizzard of replies, dust collection seems to be a hot topic on this forum. To summarise some of the replies and add in some of my own observations to put it all in perspective.

You are right to assume the cause is due to the small cyclone with narrow flex hose leading from it, however the large barrel is also a bit weak so prone to collapse. As others have pointed out. the W680 is quite a powerful collector with a wide pipe (ca 4''?) so throttling down to 2'' at the cyclone will lead to a pressure drop in the cyclone and barrel causing it to collapse.

There are a number of solutions, in order of simplicity.

1. Fortify the barrel
The simplest is to fortify the barrel or replace it with a stronger and smaller tin one. That will probably do what you want.

2. wider pipes
Your narrow pipes reduce the efficiency of dust collection. Although the narrow pipes force the air to move faster, which is good if you want that kind of vacuum cleaner suck (fast air through narrow hole), overall there will be less air flow, as the air flowing in narrow pipe experiences a lot more drag from friction of the air over the narrow pipework. If you find you need more suck at your lathe then you may want to increase the pipe diameter to equal that of the W680 port and replace the cyclone with one with wider ports or buy something like this to turn your barrel into a Thein type cyclone Cyclone Dust Collector Kit | Next Day Delivery
This is a much bigger change, so only worth doing if you need the extra suction.

3. Pressure relief valves
Lots of debate on the virtues of PRVs
A pressure relief value PRV is great for protecting against occasional one-off events, typically when a pipe gets blocked and will save a dust collector from imploding when that happens, it also relieves strain on the vacs motor (actually it protects from the motor overhearing - thanks DBT85). The vac could get blocked by shavings or inadvertently closing a blast gate etc the PRV opens and relives the pressure when an ABNORMAL EVENT occurs.

However the problem you described of the barrel collapsing under NORMAL operation is a design problem, the system is constantly pulling a vacuum and pulling-in the barrel. A PRV wont be helpful in this case, it will end up being permanently open, so reducing the effectiveness of your dust extractor. The solution is as referred too above is to strengthen the barrel or increase the pipe diameter.
However a PRV is a good safety feature. As some have commented the proper place for it is as close to the motor as possible, that way it protects all the upstream pipework and barrel. However it is often convenient to fix it to the top of the barrel - practicle flat surface to mount it, as pointed out by 'Sometime wood worker' once it is triggered it will reduce the effect of the cyclone, but if its only purpose is as safety relief used once in a while that's ok. If you plan to use the value to add in bypass air, then its best fitted downstream as near to the motor as possible, as shown in one of the YouTube clips.
Personally I regard the PRV as primarily a safety feature that will protect the motor and pipework from an abnormal event, when the pipe gets blocked. But that's my preference

I hope that is clear summary of what has gone before - this topic seems to attract a lot of heated agreement which is confusing. Let me know if you need a further explanation. Best wishes Tom
 

Chris_Pallet

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I've just fitted a pressure release valve, works perfectly.
Bought the valve from France, delivered in a few days
Watch this you tube vid from Charlie and links are in his bio

 

Chrisclan17

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I couldn’t really find a simple fix for the 55 gallon trash can collapsing so I came up with a different way of doing the pressure relief valve. I just used a toilet flapper repair kit, a spring, and a small piece of pvc pipe.

 

TominDales

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I couldn’t really find a simple fix for the 55 gallon trash can collapsing so I came up with a different way of doing the pressure relief valve. I just used a toilet flapper repair kit, a spring, and a small piece of pvc pipe.

This looks a good improvisation for a PRV, not sure we have the same plumbing fitments in the UK, not heard of a toilet flapper, but for NA members its looks a practicle solution.

I have a concern with your set up.
In your video the PrV is not being used to relieve an abnormal blockage but as an air bypass for regular suction. You may find that particles are not being as effectively collected in the drum and breaking through into the shopvac collectors. This is because he PRV is acting as an air bypass during operation, this reduced the effective suction and can interfere with the dust collecting in the drum, causing dust to be be swept through to the shopvac.

If you get either of these symptoms, they are easily fixed - if this is not an issue then you can ignore what I'm about so say and my apologies to butting in.

The reason the 55 gallon can is collapsing is that more air is being sucked out through the top of the dust deputy than is entering the drum through the long flex-hose-wand (the bit you do the hoovering with, I've called it the hose-wand for want of a better name)
Its probably because the flex hose-wand is quite long and the rough surface of the flex slows down the air going into the drum.
There are three things you can change and I'd recommend starting with the simplest.

The simplest solution would be to reinforce the drum and accept it's pulling a partial vacuum. You will got more suck making the dust removal much easier and more dust will collect in the drum. You will need to add a stronger spring to the PRV, so it only trips when the hose if blocked and does not open in bypass mode under normal use.

A more complicated solution would be to consider using a straighter and wider tube for the hose-wand that leads into the dust deputy, that would reduce the pressure drop and increase the air flow through your system making it more efficient. I'm a bit mystified by your system as the hose into and out of the deputy look the same size, so it maybe that you just have too much flex hose in the system. A clue would be from knowing what mods you have already made to your shop vac. If your long hose-wand (the one causing the pressure drop) is the original length from the shop vac, then it may be best to stick with it, as the shop vac probably designed to pull this amount of vacuum - stick with modification one ie the stronger drum mod. But if the long flexi hose-wand its something you have added-on, then you may have inadvertently lowered the air flow to your shop vac. In this case swapping the hoze-wand out for a slightly wider one would make a big difference to the efficiency of your set-up.

If after all this, the PRV keeps opening in normal operation and that compromises your dust collection, then the final option would be to move the PRV off the 55 gallon can and install it closer to the shop vac, that way the prv is relieving pressure throughout the whole system and not acting as a bypass for air into your drum. Personally I think the first two mods are all that is needed. Mod1 is simple to do and will improve the efficiency of dust collection. Mod2 is more involved.
I hope this is useful. Best wishes Tom
 

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