High or Low: A beginner's conundrum...and other questions...

[Chlad]

Hi all. New to the forum and to woodworking in general. Has been a long time on my wishlist and finally I have the time and money to pursue it. I am particularly attracted to figured and patterned hard woods and exotic woods. I dont intend to get in the business of producing wood creations to make a profit out of. I rather intend to pursue the hobby for my personal satisfaction and to hopefully create objects for my family home. Using hand planes is the first skill I intend to build on. I am not against using powered machines but in the case of planing I think it gives more satisfaction and is quite therapeutic.

I started by buying Chirs Schwartz's Handplane Essential book. I'm aware of the fact that this book evoques different sentiments in different people and I'm glad to see that both parties agree that the book is OK for beginners. Any recommendations in respect to sources (books or online) that are beneficial to beginners?

Now, on the main point: choosing my first plane: from what I have read so far I'm fairly convinced that a no62 jack will be good as my first one. That thought is especially reinforced by the fact that I have two lovely large boards that i need to get smooth and shiny. One is a slab of brown oak (2700x400x70mm) with one live edge and the other is a slab of spalted beech (2000x600x50mm) with one live edge. I understand that a 7 will probably be more suited to the job but I dont want to invest on a plane which I might not have much use for in the future. I believe that a no62 would do the job with a bit more patience.

The bit which is rather confusing is the debate about high angle or low angle (or should I say BD or BU). I am clear in theory regarding the criticisms of the low angle planes but sometimes they are difficult to translate for someone with no experience. I am also conscious that sharpening of the blade is one of the most important contributors to being sucessful with a hand plane. And it is porbably for this reason that it has stuck in my mind the fact that the blads of BU planes are thick and diffcult to sharpen especially when it comes to cambering them. On the other hand I keep reading on several places and seeing reviews of no62 LA jack (the Lie Nielsen in particular) that sing praises to how great they are, especially for beginners like me.

So I feel that a combination of the various factors: size (no62), LN brand (you get what you pay for), simplicity of the LA and versatility speak quite highly in favour of this plane. Am I on the right path? Or will the difficulties of sharpening its thick blade(s) trump the benefits?

Any advice and guidance would be very much appreciated. But please dont confuse me too much with advice about things such as winding sticks and so on :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[Silly_Billy]

Is there anyway you can try before you buy? I think a lot of this comes down to personal preference.

If you’re buying a LN, then I imagine a 5, 5½ or a low angle jack would all be excellent. (I’m also a beginner and not lucky enough to own a LN, but there are very knowledgeable people here who can comment from experience.)

Perhaps you should invest less money until you know what you like. A Quangsheng plane from Workshop Heaven or a used Stanley/Record could be good. I’ve got a Quangsheng and find it hard to fault. Used LN, Veritas and Clifton planes come up on eBay too. You could put any money saved towards a course or instructional DVDs

 

[Andy Kev.]

For books and DVDs, have a look at the Hand Tool Review links above. The first book I would recommend is The Essential Woodworker by Robert Wearing and if you can afford it, the four volumes of The Woodworker as a sort of all in one reference library.

Three internet sources also spring to mind: The English Woodworker which has mostly free content and some projects which you pay to sign up for. All are excellent. There is also Treebangham's youtube channel (also reviewed above) which is an excellent step by step guide to specific projects. Derek Cohen's site "In The Woodshop" is also a valuable source of Information, in particular his reviews of tools.

If you can find your time to wade through all that, there is little more you will need in way of tuition material. If, however, you can find time to attend real life tuition, your rate of progress will be that much quicker.

As for tool recommendations ... you'll hear a million different views. I'd recommend the Veritas low angle jack plane as the first one to get. Not only is it of the highest quality but I found as a beginner that I could see how it worked and once I'd got used to it I was in a better position to move to a Bailey style plane. That recommendation would not necessarily apply if you know somebody who can show you by example how to use the various kinds of plane but if you're working on your own, as I was, then I think an LA Jack is the place to start. But more experienced people will come along with other recommendations. In the end you have to weigh all the advice up and decide for yourself.

PS Once you have got your new plane, don't take it straight to your live oak or spalted beech. Practice on wood which behaves itself, while at the same time learning sharpening. After a while - and it will be a short while - you'll know when you're ready to muck about with the more difficult stuff.

 

[nabs]

You are unlikely to get anyone who disagrees that a jack plane is a good size for your first plane.

for BU / BD there is no consensus - both work and people just have preferences. Both camps will say their preference is more versatile but I am afraid that discussion has elements of the confusing 'winding sticks' type argument you hope to avoid .

IMO The main advantage for BD is - because they have been the standard choice in metal bench planes for 100+ years - there are lots of used ones about so you can get them very cheaply. The downside is you have to learn to set them up(not difficult but a bit of a distraction if you want to get on and start preparing your boards).

If you have the cash, getting a posh plane as your first one is a good idea as you can be confident it will work right away. This is what I'd have done if I were starting again (I am only recently in the same position as you). Personally I'd have got a BD plane - I am a slave to tradition though!

 

[Jacob]

Best beginner's plane would be an old 5 1/2, or of only small stuff then a 5. Modern BU planes are just a fashion trend (except for little block planes which are BU to make them more compact for one handed use).
NB A common beginners mistake is to think in terms of PAR; don't plane your large boards until you've cut them down to component size for the finished product, whatever it is.

 

[Andy Kev.]

Best beginner's plane would be an old 5 1/2, or of only small stuff then a 5. Modern BU planes are just a fashion trend (except for little block planes which are BU to make them more compact for one handed use).
NB A common beginners mistake is to think in terms of PAR; don't plane your large boards until you've cut them down to component size for the finished product, whatever it is.

I know you're greatly experienced and that most of what you say makes sense and IMO you don't deserve the flak you attract. However, I feel that by now I have enough experience to refute your assertion that "Modern BU planes are just a fashion trend ..." They are in fact highly effective, high precision instruments for getting wood into the state you want it to be.* No-one would maintain that they are the only way of achieving that and indeed under certain circumstances one can be better served by a BD plane but in terms of general use they are an equal alternative to BD with the added advantage of being mechanically simpler.

The part of your statement which I have quoted is, I contest, simply not true and I reckon you know that. A comparison of the two in use involving a very fair minded discussion of them is provided by The Renaissance Woodworker on his website. If I can find the link, I'll add it to this. Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnrOtbnUaVg He deals with block planes, smoothers and jacks. The discussion of the Jacks starts at about 7:15 mins.

*More likely to be the case if you buy from the better manufacturers like Veritas or LN. Shame that Clifton doesn't do a BU Jack.

 

[PAC1]

Wow. You want to buy your first plane and then use it to hand finish two live edge tops. One brown oak the other beech. If you have never used a plane before (an assumption based on “first plane”) then can I suggest you learn to plane and sharpen a plane before you start worrying about the precise angle of a bevel. When you have these skills you will know what to do. When you can set up and use a No 4 or No 5 properly considering cap iron position, straight or curving a blade a truly sharp blade etc etc you may find that a No 4, 5 or 5.5 will do the job perfectly well.
A No 62 is a great plane but an unusual and expensive one to learn to plane with.

 

[nabs]

see what I meant Chlad? it is a minefield and you are not going to get any consistent advice. My guess is if you did a survey the least controversial choice - at least on this forum - would be a BD plane, but if you joined another forum you might get a different answer.
You just have to make a choice and get practicing!

 

[ED65]

Just to warn you, this subject isn't just a big ol' can o' worms it's likely to be a hornet's nest of conflicting opinion.

Any recommendations in respect to sources (books or online) that are beneficial to beginners?

On planes specifically "The Handplane Book" by Garrett Hack is an obvious first suggestion but I would recommend that you try to read everything published you can lay your hands on. From early 19th-century handbooks through the great period of woodwork publishing in the middle of the 20th and yes, even to books of more recent vintage, there's something to be gained from almost all of it. Even if it's only to get a perspective on traditional practice and to see what areas are now generally agreed upon – rightly or wrongly.

Now, on the main point: choosing my first plane...

For the general question I'd normally recommend a no. 4 as it's less intimidating to begin with, but a 5 is a solid choice too and many would pick that out first.

Which leads on to my main point and that is basically to ignore the debate about BD v. BU bench planes. Focus just on standard Bailey-pattern bench planes as almost all practitioners did throughout the last century. Just as with them there's no reason you couldn't use that style of bench plane exclusively throughout your life and never feel that you're missing out on something.

Bevel-down planes certainly have some beneficial aspects, but I feel that they're more than outweighed by the finicky sharpening issues for one. And, frankly, the cost of the spare blades in many of those currently in production would put me off all by itself, when really good new swap-in irons for Bailey-pattern planes are available to anyone for less than a tenner, and sometimes less than a fiver.

On the other hand I keep reading on several places and seeing reviews of no62 LA jack (the Lie Nielsen in particular) that sing praises to how great they are, especially for beginners like me.

Bear in mind that a lot (a lot) of current writing is basically someone looking for a subject to write about, and whether they may also have a hidden agenda is worth pondering.

Whether the writer is in a suitable position to be making the recommendation is also worth thinking about. What I mean isn't whether they're qualified to proffer an opinion – no qualifications are necessary for that – what I'm getting at is whether they still realise what is better for beginners and early learners. Not all by any means, but many pros/semi-pros have lost perspective on what is best for those starting out. IMHO this is not to go with what's easy now because it's more palatable to the typical beginner mindset but to prepare them properly, as though they were being trained to be full-time woodworkers; so no babying, no half measures and no easy early solutions.

Now back to your two big slabs of wood. I would strongly strongly recommend you don't use them for your first forays into hand planing! Start with some stuff a little smaller and more conquerable and work your way towards them. As you gain experience, not just with planing but with honing which you have to learn alongside this, and as your confidence builds you'll know when you're ready to take a run at them.

Last but not least: never forget that you don't have to be able to finish-plane wood to call yourself a 'proper' woodworker! There's no rule that says the last tool to touch the surface has to be a plane. In fact it's rare to do so. Scraping and/or sanding to complete the smoothing of wood isn't just fairly common, it's the norm.

 

[Jacob]

....t in terms of general use they are an equal alternative to BD with the added advantage of being mechanically simpler.

But with the added disadvantages of being much more expensive and much more difficult to sharpen and adjust. These are the strengths of the Bailey design and the reason for its phenomenal success over a very long period and particularly important to the very frequent/regular hand tool user

 

[MikeG.]

It's difficult to think of the right analogy. Do you learn to drive in a Rolls Royce or Ferrari? (No, that equates a LN plane with a top-of-the-range car when it is just a tool, and no better than most others). When you take up golf do you buy the same clubs Tiger Woods uses for many thousand pounds, or do you borrow a friends old set and see how you get on? (That's much better). In many sporting fields, there is a standard expression......."all the gear and no idea".........which is a bit pejorative in your circumstances, but indicates the danger in just jumping in with expensive kit before you are even sure this is a hobby for you.

Do what you want. Honestly, everyone here wishes newcomers well, and will help all they can. The advice you are getting is more "well I wouldn't do it that way" rather than "that way is wrong". If you've got lots of spare money for setting up in woodwork, well great, spend it on top-notch kit. The thing is, there is absolutely no substitute for skills and experience. Fancy tools are not a shortcut. My biggest single piece of advice then would be spend your money on wood rather than more and more tools, and spend lots of time working with that wood with a few simple tools. Oh, and don't fall into the standard forum trap of fetishising planes. It's just a blade held at an angle, with a couple of handles.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I would say learn to sharpen, set and use a 4 1/2 or 5 1/2 (It's only my opinion, I prefer half sizes) properly first - and never, ever buy anything on someone else's say so. Hundreds of thousands of first rate craftsmen managed to work their whole lives with a couple of Stanleys, Records or Marples.

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

I would say learn to sharpen, set and use a 4 1/2 or 5 1/2 (It's only my opinion, I prefer half sizes) properly first - and never, ever buy anything on someone else's say so. Hundreds of thousands of first rate craftsmen managed to work their whole lives with a couple of Stanleys, Records or Marples.

Chlad, I'm in the same position as you, a relative newbie to 'proper' woodworking, and this advice from Phil is exactly what I did. I found a Stanley No 4 and No 5 1/2 on eBay that needed some real TLC and were a very reasonable price, and I also inherited a well used 30 year old Stanley block plane. I figured that if I can dismantle, clean up, sharpen and reassemble them, I'll have good knowledge of how they work before I start to use them. If I get experienced enough, I may consider something else, but for now these planes will do me fine.

OWK ccasion5:

 

[PAC1]

It's difficult to think of the right analogy. Do you learn to drive in a Rolls Royce or Ferrari? (No, that equates a LN plane with a top-of-the-range car when it is just a tool, and no better than most others). When you take up golf do you buy the same clubs Tiger Woods uses for many thousand pounds, or do you borrow a friends old set and see how you get on? (That's much better). In many sporting fields, there is a standard expression......."all the gear and no idea".........which is a bit pejorative in your circumstances, but indicates the danger in just jumping in with expensive kit before you are even sure this is a hobby for you.

Do what you want. Honestly, everyone here wishes newcomers well, and will help all they can. The advice you are getting is more "well I wouldn't do it that way" rather than "that way is wrong". If you've got lots of spare money for setting up in woodwork, well great, spend it on top-notch kit. The thing is, there is absolutely no substitute for skills and experience. Fancy tools are not a shortcut. My biggest single piece of advice then would be spend your money on wood rather than more and more tools, and spend lots of time working with that wood with a few simple tools. Oh, and don't fall into the standard forum trap of fetishising planes. It's just a blade held at an angle, with a couple of handles.

Mike, I agree with what you say but your analogies did not go far enough. Not only does the OP want to learn to drive a Rolls Royce or Ferrari but he wants to do so whilst competing in a Grand Prix.
Whilst I admire the ambition of taking a plane out of its box and setting about a large live edge brown oak project. It is a challenge even for those of us with lots of experience. You only have to read Custard's wonderful thread on such a task to see that there are many challenges that will only be overcome with practice and experience.
It would be disaster for the OP to set about this with enthusiasm only to become very tired and frustrated, not knowing if it is the set up of the plane, the skill to read the grain or the fact that it is just a very difficult project involving very hard work. Then give up woodworking all together.

 

[nabs]

I am not sure the OP was really asking whether to buy old/cheap vs new/pricey but since it has come up, we should at least warn him that this is another hornets nest.

lots of people starting out get by quite happily with second hand planes from ebay (me included) and we are very lucky in the UK to be able to get hold of good quality old tools for very little money that will do everything you need.

However, the OP has some cash and is not proposing to buy a whole range of expensive planes, just a single plane to get going. I think buying a posh one is a perfectly logical thing to do when starting out, particularly if you are not really interested in tool fiddling.

don't get me wrong, sorting out old tools can be a very enjoyable pass time in its own right and you do learn a lot about how tools work, but not everyone will relish the time it takes away from learning how to use them.

 

[Jacob]

..... but not everyone will relish the time it takes away from learning how to use them.

The main reason for buying a trad Bailey pattern plane - they are much easier to use, though maybe not "out of the box" like an LV or LN. When they've been out for a bit that advantage disappears. Here today, gone tomorrow, for ever!
Been using my 5 1/2 this morning. It takes about 30 secs to whip out the blade, drop off the stayset cap iron, freehand it on an oil stone, put it back together - almost in the same setting, then set it spot on. BU takes much longer and is harder to adjust even after putting back together - they all suffer from having no lever cap and also the tedious Norris-style adjuster.

 

[nabs]

you can buy a posh/modern Bailey pattern planes too, not just BU planes and unconventional BD designs.

Whatever happens a new user is going to have to learn to sharpen and adjust their planes - and eventually other maintenance might be needed - but my point is that this should be easier with a new plane as you avoid the extra work that can be needed to salvage an oldie.

PS I agree the Bailey design is brilliant - an extraordinary success story when you consider it was invented 150 years ago and still going strong..

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

... So I feel that a combination of the various factors: size (no62), LN brand (you get what you pay for), simplicity of the LA and versatility speak quite highly in favour of this plane. Am I on the right path? Or will the difficulties of sharpening its thick blade(s) trump the benefits? .....

Purchase the #62. It is a superb plane. It will get you working wood with minimal effort (and isn't that the important part). Get a second blade: keep one honed at 25 degrees for shooting end grain and another with a 50 degree secondary bevel for smoothing. You will be delighted by the results.

Also purchase a vintage Stanley #4. Learn about its idiosyncrasies. Strip it and clean it up, read about tuning these planes. Have fun getting an education. Learn to set the chipbreaker. It takes time but is worth the effort in the long run. In the meantime, continue to use and enjoy the #62. These planes are different, but you will come to appreciate the strengths of each.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[nabs]

a compromise! And a very constructive suggestion

 

[MrDavidRoberts]

NEW Good BU Plane such as Quangsheng 62 is Miles and miles better than a standard old-school plane, you need to have a real expertise to setup a regular old battered vintage plane to shave as smooth as the BU will do almost right out of the box..

I would rather use the hours needed to turn an old plane in to good plane in actually making something... + Again..People new to woodworking will have a rubbish experience with one of the old planes as they don't really know what they are doing + it's hard to actually learn without knowing what you should be getting.

A good 62 plane starts from 100-140pounds , a decent shape 5 1/2 will run you 40 ,sure you can tune up both to give same results but for me it took like half a year and number of days to actually ''learn'' how to do it properly and get the results I want & I still don't think I'm expert in it In actual billable hours It probably took me like 70-80 hours in research/trying out various things/learning the ways to sharpen it/shape it / etc... so even at minimum wage that's like 500pound investment just to get it working.. There's no way I'm getting that back..



I wish I had bought a new 62 plane right away...

All the old farts who have never actually tried a modern good 62 plane, please just don't comment nonsense...
Btw, I funded my Good tools by purchasing cheap old planes from ebay, fixing/polishing them up and selling for 3-5x more.. I have gone through at least 25 of the older stanley/records, not 1 plane I received was in the state of ''use it out of the box for smooth results'' ,a newcomer will simply have no idea what's wrong with an used plane and what needs doing to it to get it perfect- again they don't even know what results you should be getting from a good one as they have nothing to compare against..

Yes it's a cheap way to get in to woodworking.. but it's a waste of your time..