help with pricing

[sbk]

Hi all
I am looking for some pricing advice.
although I have worked as a joiner for many years i have just started working for myself and am unsure
what to charge.
This piece that i have just finished is made from customer supplied teak so i just need some guidance on labour only.

any help would be appreciated.

Happy new year all.

 

[o0dunk0o]

People tend to be a bit cagey when it comes to suggesting labour rates but as a guide anywhere from £10 to £35 per hour.

It all depends on your overheads (do you have a workshop to pay for ect) what you feel comfortable with and what the chances are you'll get more work from them :wink:

 

[sbk]

yes i suppose they would be.
I work from home, i am lucky to have enough space for a usable workshop.
As you can perhaps tell from the pic this is a boat door and the customer wants me to do all the
joinery,so as you say i don't want to overprice one piece at the cost of more work.
cheers

 

[o0dunk0o]

What sort of boat?

what I'd suggest is charge slightly more (10-20%) than you used to get paid before you went self employed.

If it's for a boat be very careful about estimating how long things will take you to do, it's a slightly different skill set (I've had to fix a lot of work done by joiners on boats)

 

[sbk]

its a 40ft river boat type thing? I guess things will take longer .

 

[o0dunk0o]

Is it wooden, metal or fibreglass?

Things take longer, internal joinery (doors, drawers ect) can swell up quite a bit. Never use steel even in hinges and catches it can cause problems , use a2 stainless or silicone bronze fastenings for preference brass is ok for a cheaper option.

 

[Atkins joinery]

Hi

I look at it this way.There are things which cost you money that you have to buy that are not materials, van ins, diesel, public liability, tools, etc. Tot these costs up as best you can for a yearly figure. Say it comes to 2000 pounds and you work for 12.50 per hour. On a 40 hr week 49 wks of the year 2000 pound equates to 98p per hour. 98p +12.50 + specific job materials + comsumables for that job (glue, nails etc) say 5 pound

Materials = customer bought
Labour = 20 hrs @ 13.48 = 269.60 (12.50 + 98p per hr)
Consumables = 5 pound
Total = 274.60 pound

Assuming you don't need to get rid of anywaste as that is also a cost which should be factored in.

When I set up I worked for less if the total looked expensive to have a better chance of getting the job but as your rep builds up it slightly and see if your still getting jobs.

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk 2

 

[sbk]

its fiberglass and yes i was concerned when he gave me some cheap plated hinges from screwfix ! but he has been warned.
The glue seemed to be a problem also cascamite doesn't seem to work on teak so have had to used polyproof which is nasty stuff.
any other suggestions for an alternative. the cabin interior is going to be oak.

 

[sbk]

Hi

I look at it this way.There are things which cost you money that you have to buy that are not materials, van ins, diesel, public liability, tools, etc. Tot these costs up as best you can for a yearly figure. Say it comes to 2000 pounds and you work for 12.50 per hour. On a 40 hr week 49 wks of the year 2000 pound equates to 98p per hour. 98p +12.50 + specific job materials + comsumables for that job (glue, nails etc) say 5 pound

Materials = customer bought
Labour = 20 hrs @ 13.48 = 269.60 (12.50 + 98p per hr)
Consumables = 5 pound
Total = 274.60 pound

Assuming you don't need to get rid of anywaste as that is also a cost which should be factored in.

When I set up I worked for less if the total looked expensive to have a better chance of getting the job but as your rep builds up it slightly and see if your still getting jobs.

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk 2

makes sense hadnt thought of it that way.
I usually go for the if it looks to much make it less ethos but dont want to devalue my skill either so go half way.
Thanks

 

[Atkins joinery]

If its a income now, not a cash job on a weekend for beer money then look at labour as your wage. How much you want per week can only come from what you charge per hour . If its too little and you're not happy you will get disheartened and probably give up and go get a normal job. I'm not saying charge the earth but you have got to be happy with it or whats the point?

Obviously its abit of trial and error but after a bit of a juggle you'll find what works. I made loads of mistakes (and still do the odd one) and one thing I will suggest is always give a written estimate and invoice just in case.

You may also think its bloody hard work but I found after the first 12 months, work finds you and you don't have to buy it with low labour rates.

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk 2

 

[o0dunk0o]

Teak is a pain to glue I usually use polyurethane (bubble glue), resorcinol or epoxy, you need to give it a wipe with solvent to get the surface grease off of it, and giving it a good scrape with an old hacksaw blade is a good option too.

For the interior I've had decent results with titebond 3 and bubble glue although I've only done a couple in oak another good option is aerolite or aerodux .

with fibreglass a major concern is condensation so every surface near the hull will need to be well sealed.

Another thing to take into consideration is anything you build should be fairly easily disassembled, there's nothing worse than having to destroy a load of interior fittings to do a minor repair on the deck or hull.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

+1 I was taught at school (45yrs ago) to degrease teak before glueing it.

 

[sbk]

Teak is a pain to glue I usually use polyurethane (bubble glue), resorcinol or epoxy, you need to give it a wipe with solvent to get the surface grease off of it, and giving it a good scrape with an old hacksaw blade is a good option too.

For the interior I've had decent results with titebond 3 and bubble glue although I've only done a couple in oak another good option is aerolite or aerodux .

with fibreglass a major concern is condensation so every surface near the hull will need to be well sealed.

Another thing to take into consideration is anything you build should be fairly easily disassembled, there's nothing worse than having to destroy a load of interior fittings to do a minor repair on the deck or hull.

Yes i did some test pieces with various glues including polyurethane and using panel wipe to degrease.
But polyproof came out best for teak i might try titebond for the oak...the interior i am going to make as modular as
possible within the customers spec.will take on board (pardon the pun ) re condensation .
Thanks

 

[o0dunk0o]

No probs, happy to help.

 

[Argus]

.

Teak has been used in boats for centuries - before modern glues were invented because it resists the effects of water and rot. At the risk of starting a controversy, why not avoid glue altogether?

Why not consider mortise, tenon and draw-bored joints on the stiles and rails with loose panels ship-lapped. If done properly and allowances made for movement it will be every bit as strong.
Quicker, too in the long run........ no clamping and waiting around for it to set off.

.

 

[Andrewf]

As mentioned earlier pricing and quoting for work on boats can be difficult. Several boat builders I know normally quote a daily rate for working on boats, as you never know what will turn up. With re negotiation of job at each stage. A five minute job can easily turn into a major job. I once went to replace a rubbing strake on my own boat, which should have taken a morning. Ended up taking several weeks and half rebuilding one side of the boat.

 

[sbk]

I did offer a pegged joint and through wedged tenons but the customer wanted
a specific look ,if it were my boat i would use dry joints for sure...

 

[o0dunk0o]

As mentioned earlier pricing and quoting for work on boats can be difficult. Several boat builders I know normally quote a daily rate for working on boats, as you never know what will turn up. With re negotiation of job at each stage. A five minute job can easily turn into a major job. I once went to replace a rubbing strake on my own boat, which should have taken a morning. Ended up taking several weeks and half rebuilding one side of the boat.

I always make it clear to a customer that I'm giving them an estimate not a quote when it comes to work on boats, if any unforeseen problems come up I use a change order where the extra work is detailed and the customer and I both sign it.

 

[o0dunk0o]

.

Teak has been used in boats for centuries - before modern glues were invented because it resists the effects of water and rot. At the risk of starting a controversy, why not avoid glue altogether?

Why not consider mortise, tenon and draw-bored joints on the stiles and rails with loose panels ship-lapped. If done properly and allowances made for movement it will be every bit as strong.
Quicker, too in the long run........ no clamping and waiting around for it to set off.

.

Teak will rot and a prime place for it is in the bottom rail of a door with a loose panel in it, glueing it will double it's lifespan

 

[beech1948]

Hi pricing ehh!!

Much of the advice above is sound but occasionally unstructured. Also a lot of words used are confusing eg estimate and not a price.

An estimate is simply the value you have agreed to work upto before you ask for more.

When setting prices you need to consider these first

1) Cost of materials..wood
2) Cost of consumables..eg glue, screws, rags, electricity, water, gas, heating, rates, rent, tools, jigs, materials for jigs, tooling, run down in value of machinery. Not exhaustive but treat as a sample and don't forget the cost of the kettle and tea bags +biccies
3) Fixed costs..machinery repair fund, insurances, licences, permits,
4) Interest on money outstanding....what you spend out and have to wait to get back....I once had to fund a £85,000 material cost for 7 months
4) Your wages...say £20 per hour + a % for taxes and NI
5) Profit. That is the surplus funds after ALL costs have been taken out of revenue including your wages. This what the business pays tax on not you. It is essential for the business to survive and prosper and can range from 0% to 40% for a small business.

Hope this helps
Al