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Trevanion

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LBCarpentry":28jy6rmb said:
My very first thought was........why are your horns all different lengths, and why are your tenons that long?
It is unwise to question the methods of a master!
 

Inspector

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There are very soft flexible flat straps about an inch wide that can lift a ton. They come with a loop at each end and as a continuous loop too. Although the seam where they are lapped and sewn together is stiffer. For the loads you're picking up you can make a spreader bar out of nothing more than a spruce 2x4 with a couple notches in the ends. I would remove your winch mounting screws and put up a 2x10 flat to the ceiling spanning three joists above with 3 or 4 long screws in each. Then you can have a couple carriage bolts come through to bolt the winch back on to.

Pete
 

ColeyS1

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LBCarpentry":ncdgco81 said:
My very first thought was........why are your horns all different lengths, and why are your tenons that long?
When I order timber for stiles I usually order them 100mm longer for horns (50mm each end) If i get a little planer snipe or want to use the end for setting up the tenoner I've got a bit spare. If the timber supplier sends the pieces longer it's not worth cutting off 100-200mm and putting away in the rack, it just goes in the log bin after I've cut the horns off on the table saw. The only thing I try and do after the glue up is make sure at least one end of the door horns are of similar length.

It stands nicer then if I need to use my bench for other things.
The tenons I usually keep longer for wedging.


I usually allow 2-3mm slop on the sides of the tenons (outer edge) and then drive the wedges home. I found having the tenon protrude 10 or so mm gives the wedge a little extra support when I start tapping them in. I use to get more wedges snap/buckle when I had the tenons shorter, the cut off saw on the tenoner makes it easy enough to do. I always think having a wedged tenon is like leaving the sash clamps on.

It's not necessarily the right way to do it, it's just a way I've found that works for me. My old foreman use to say 'never be afraid to ask questions' listen to what everyone has to say, weigh up the pros and cons and decide yourself what works best for you [WINKING FACE]

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ColeyS1

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Inspector":3b49gnd9 said:
There are very soft flexible flat straps about an inch wide that can lift a ton. They come with a loop at each end and as a continuous loop too. Although the seam where they are lapped and sewn together is stiffer. For the loads you're picking up you can make a spreader bar out of nothing more than a spruce 2x4 with a couple notches in the ends. I would remove your winch mounting screws and put up a 2x10 flat to the ceiling spanning three joists above with 3 or 4 long screws in each. Then you can have a couple carriage bolts come through to bolt the winch back on to.

Pete
I think it's best I put this down as a practice run to prove it works then have a proper go.

I've got plenty of 50x6 metal I could use to span several joists that might help making it more secure.
I've got 1.6m from top of bench to winch hook. That door is 1075mm wide.

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LBCarpentry

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ColeyS1":2jh9wpxr said:
LBCarpentry":2jh9wpxr said:
My very first thought was........why are your horns all different lengths, and why are your tenons that long?
When I order timber for stiles I usually order them 100mm longer for horns (50mm each end) If i get a little planer snipe or want to use the end for setting up the tenoner I've got a bit spare. If the timber supplier sends the pieces longer it's not worth cutting off 100-200mm and putting away in the rack, it just goes in the log bin after I've cut the horns off on the table saw. The only thing I try and do after the glue up is make sure at least one end of the door horns are of similar length.

It stands nicer then if I need to use my bench for other things.
The tenons I usually keep longer for wedging.


I usually allow 2-3mm slop on the sides of the tenons (outer edge) and then drive the wedges home. I found having the tenon protrude 10 or so mm gives the wedge a little extra support when I start tapping them in. I use to get more wedges snap/buckle when I had the tenons shorter, the cut off saw on the tenoner makes it easy enough to do. I always think having a wedged tenon is like leaving the sash clamps on.

It's not necessarily the right way to do it, it's just a way I've found that works for me. My old foreman use to say 'never be afraid to ask questions' listen to what everyone has to say, weigh up the pros and cons and decide yourself what works best for you [WINKING FACE]

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This is very interesting. When I prepare the stiles for wedges, I mark a line 8mm either side of the mortise and use a chisel to chamfer down into the mortise. This creates a wedge shape which in turn, means I can drive the wedge in deeper. This was how I’ve always been taught. I’m interested in your method though as it sounds quicker.......
you said 2-3mm slop... are you over cutting the mortises 2mm or under cutting the tenons 2mm? And your not creating any wedge shape, your just driving the wedges in?
 

Trevanion

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LBCarpentry":35jb0879 said:
This is very interesting. When I prepare the stiles for wedges, I mark a line 8mm either side of the mortise and use a chisel to chamfer down into the mortise. This creates a wedge shape which in turn, means I can drive the wedge in deeper. This was how I’ve always been taught. I’m interested in your method though as it sounds quicker.......
you said 2-3mm slop... are you over cutting the mortises 2mm or under cutting the tenons 2mm? And your not creating any wedge shape, your just driving the wedges in?
I personally cut a 3mm or so(Any more than that is redundant, you don't get any more holding power from a larger wedge, the only reason you need larger wedges is if your joints are sloppy) wedge shape into the mortice using the morticer pulling it down and turning the handwheel while it's running, Much faster than faffing around with a hammer and chisel. I also tend to bottom out the chisel in a haunch and drag it along the bottom to clear out all the chips that are still attached to the mortice, much faster than faffing around with a chisel. It's the little tricks that make the job go quicker that make you more money.
 

Woody2Shoes

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I have one of those electric hoists and I find it very useful, I mounted it on a short length of scaffolding tube - which allows me to position it at different positions along the tube (which is otherwise fixed at both ends).
I also got a couple of straps like those below - they can grip very tightly with minimal risk of marking esp. with a bit of old carpet strategically positioned as mentioned above. +1 for the carabiners also.

I got my straps from Screwfix with the winch, but their search facility is such pants I can't find any on their website now!

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/2-metre ... ing-strap/
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/c/lifting-straps--strops/

Cheers, W2S
 

pollys13

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What timber is that in the door Coley? The ribboning I thought might be Sapele, the rest???
Wedges for through tenons, should the wedges have a taper on both sides? Also does the mortise have, ( I believe the correct term is, a haunching ) to accept the wedge?
Cheers.
 

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Woody2Shoes":usxl6rha said:
I have one of those electric hoists and I find it very useful, I mounted it on a short length of scaffolding tube - which allows me to position it at different positions along the tube (which is otherwise fixed at both ends).

Cheers, W2S
That's smart. (hammer)
Might lose too much height for Coley's situation. At least for hanging up doors with cramps on them. One solution would be to cut the cramps down..... Not my priorities to decide. :wink:
The link I posted to round slings was for a couple of reasons other than those I mentioned. In an ideal world I'd just use climbing slings. Cheap, light, adaptable, you can join them easily with a loop so no knots. But for simplicity and for repeat work (if it's always doors for example) and you can get the right length slings its just easy. Climbing slings over a certain length are rare. I appreciate there a many ways to skin a cat and no absolute best.
All of them will hold the weights being suspended with no issue.

One other thing that might be worth mentioning just for general interest is *biiiiiig breath* rigging angles.

So bear with me. Doesn't have a huge bearing on this but it's worth being aware of and while we are on the subject... it's good knowledge.

Everything I rig from (hang off of) I have to use two anchors. It's an abseil thing. Then I have to use a second rope because I'm a meat bag and not a pallet of cement. It's a good rule but let's ignore back ups. It's irrelevant here.
In real life I often have to tie my ropes to various different anchor points to get my ropes in the right place. So I have to tie my ropes on the roof to equalise these two anchors.
This can get complicated quickly so let's keep it simple.

THE LOAD FOR ALL IS 100KG

If you are sharing weight between two anchors, the load on each anchor increases exponentially with each degree of separation. The further apart the anchors the more the load weighs. In my game we call it the multiplier effect. No idea what the proper science name is. Or the physics. That's why I clean windows and don't fly helicopters. Alas. :| I think I'd make a great helicoptor pilot personally. 8)

Here's a picture.


We hang a 100 kg load off 2 anchors and we are load sharing. That's 50 kg an anchor. Perfect. Safe as houses.
90 degrees thats 70% of load.

We call 120 degrees the critical angle because at that point we equalise anchors. 100 kg on each.
From there it gets a bit clever for me. By the time you rig at 180 degrees you are putting 3 times your load to each anchor. I get round this (on occassion by adding strength to the system by adding extra slings and rope but it's very rare. In the old days you just took a deep breath lmao thought of the money and stepped out into the void. The young lads wear sunglasses (sunglasses!) and gloves nowadays and talk about the good old days (last summer... #-o )and love a work at height permit. :shock: Different world now.
 

ColeyS1

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LBCarpentry":zuq2jb85 said:
ColeyS1":zuq2jb85 said:
LBCarpentry":zuq2jb85 said:
My very first thought was........why are your horns all different lengths, and why are your tenons that long?
When I order timber for stiles I usually order them 100mm longer for horns (50mm each end) If i get a little planer snipe or want to use the end for setting up the tenoner I've got a bit spare. If the timber supplier sends the pieces longer it's not worth cutting off 100-200mm and putting away in the rack, it just goes in the log bin after I've cut the horns off on the table saw. The only thing I try and do after the glue up is make sure at least one end of the door horns are of similar length.

It stands nicer then if I need to use my bench for other things.
The tenons I usually keep longer for wedging.


I usually allow 2-3mm slop on the sides of the tenons (outer edge) and then drive the wedges home. I found having the tenon protrude 10 or so mm gives the wedge a little extra support when I start tapping them in. I use to get more wedges snap/buckle when I had the tenons shorter, the cut off saw on the tenoner makes it easy enough to do. I always think having a wedged tenon is like leaving the sash clamps on.

It's not necessarily the right way to do it, it's just a way I've found that works for me. My old foreman use to say 'never be afraid to ask questions' listen to what everyone has to say, weigh up the pros and cons and decide yourself what works best for you [WINKING FACE]

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
This is very interesting. When I prepare the stiles for wedges, I mark a line 8mm either side of the mortise and use a chisel to chamfer down into the mortise. This creates a wedge shape which in turn, means I can drive the wedge in deeper. This was how I’ve always been taught. I’m interested in your method though as it sounds quicker.......
you said 2-3mm slop... are you over cutting the mortises 2mm or under cutting the tenons 2mm? And your not creating any wedge shape, your just driving the wedges in?
The mortices are 2-3....realistically 4mm wider on the outer edge. I usually set the haunch depth on the morticer then use the same depth setting for my wedges- a bit like you though, that's how I was taught. Do you need to chop the slope accurately to match your wedge then ?

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ColeyS1

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pollys13":nxnmwpjt said:
What timber is that in the door Coley? The ribboning I thought might be Sapele, the rest???
Spot on,sapele. It's in aluminium primer now awaiting the next few licks of paint.


A bit hush hush though. This is the old door but just repaired if you know what I mean........[WINKING FACE]

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ColeyS1

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Woody2Shoes":1kcsloh4 said:
I have one of those electric hoists and I find it very useful, I mounted it on a short length of scaffolding tube - which allows me to position it at different positions along the tube (which is otherwise fixed at both ends).
I also got a couple of straps like those below - they can grip very tightly with minimal risk of marking esp. with a bit of old carpet strategically positioned as mentioned above. +1 for the carabiners also.

I got my straps from Screwfix with the winch, but their search facility is such pants I can't find any on their website now!

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/2-metre ... ing-strap/
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/c/lifting-straps--strops/

Cheers, W2S
The scaffold tube is a great idea. Just having a metre of play would help with positioning over the bench. D did you use exhaust clamps to fit to the tube ? Does it slide well ?

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