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Benchwayze

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My point is simple.

Healthy eating as defined by current dictates is utter tosh. I believe the complete reverse is the truth. I also believe Doctors and nutritionists are badly educated and misguided. The few who are now beginning to see the light are nervous of saying so, not because they might be wrong, but because their peers will treat them as heretics.

Logically, if we were not meant to eat fat, and meat; to get our carbohydrates from vegetables and fruit, (Not ROOT crops), then how did our species survive until 12,000 years ago? If we need bread now, we would have needed it then, and it wouldn't have been available, So, we would have become extinct before we learned how to farm.

In truth we know mankind is a hunter-gatherer species. All the pseudo science dredged up by the drug companies and the wheat giants won't alter that. Mankind is by nature a Hunter-Gatherer. Period. We choose to live differently, and we are paying the penalty in diabetes, blood pressure and strokes.

And if stress does NOT cause heart attacks, please tell me Trim, what does?
I think know what you'll say, and I'll say you are misinformed too.

If you all put aside the rubbish that's been drip-fed to us, via the media, and thought about the Inuit, Masai, Australian Aboriginals, South American indigenous tribes, you might see what I am getting at. Just think how they lived, (and some still do). Just as we once did. It's only when these people come into contact with Westerner's (So-called civilisation) and start eating pizzas, burgers, pies, etc. that they start to exhibit the diseases that plague us. Some of the food items I mentioned have meat in them, but not all. But they do have one thing in common. Wheat! The Grain giants make sure of that. So it isn't the burger that does the damage; it's the bun!

Sorry, but obesity was never a problem until we started farming. You won't convince me otherwise. I stopped eating too many carbs, and I am losing weight, whilst most people who are trying are failing. That's all the evidence I need.



Finally FAT IS NOT FATTENING.I.e it doesn't make us obese. (Fat is a noun btw NOT an adjective)
Fat can be used as fuel by the body. Excess fat not used is evacuated from the body. That's why it doesn't cause heart attacks.
Excess fuel obtained from carbs is laid down as body-fat. So if you eat a lot of carbs, you should do more exercise, which can be stressful, which will cause heart attacks. Stress causes heart attacks.

I doubt I will change anyone's mind, but then that's not my 'vision'. I am doing what is good for me. I just felt others might be interested, and that I might stimulate some discussion. It seems I have. So I better keep my battle bowler on!
FINI!.

Regards
John :wink:
 

StevieB

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Oh dear, now you are just making yourself look silly John. When in a hole stop digging would be my advice. I shall bow out of this thread now as it seems to be getting nowhere.

Steve
 

Benchwayze

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StevieB":38nileub said:
Oh dear, now you are just making yourself look silly John. When in a hole stop digging would be my advice. I shall bow out of this thread now as it seems to be getting nowhere.

Steve


Most of the world's population once thought the Earth was flat. Until it was proven otherwise.
Now most of us believe it is somewhat spherical. There's no evidence to say otherwise.

However, there is evidence to support all that I have just said, if you want to look for it, and read it.

Read it with an open mind though. or you will just rubbish it, as you just rubbished me.

Obviously Steve your mind is closed so I am wasting my time. But please don't accuse me of being silly, just because I don't fall in with the accepted line of teaching, which my reading and research leads me to believe is wrong.

If I am wrong, then I will soon die of hardened arteries and ballooning weight, caused by my enjoyment of fish, fowl and meat!

John :wink:
 

gregmcateer

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TrimTheKing":1b2l34ic said:
Sorry if this offends, but the comment that stress is what causes heart attacks and less about what you eat, is utter rubbish. The heart is a muscle and needs exercise to do its job properly, and I'm sorry but if thats what you Doctor friend told you then I'm glad I'm not under his care.

I know all comments need to be taken in context and he may well have said more than you have posted, but look at it this way. Take a man who eats healthily, has a good body weight but works in a highly stressed environment, with inflated blood pressure, for an extended period of time. He then has a heart attack. That is stress related. The high blood pressure putting undue stress on the heart muscle by pumping too hard for too long.

Take another person who has a shocking diet, sits on their pineapple all day watching TV and having their bills paid by the state. Arteries completely clogged with cake and bacon butties, but the only stress is the decision wether to have that third chocolate eclair or not, and they have a heart attack. Can you really compare the two?

Now I know they are two extremes, but using one statement to cover all options is a very dangerous thing to do.

It's all about balance. Eat well, which means balancing healthy with enjoyable, and keeping your body moving enough to burn some calories will keep most of us alive for a long time. Most of all, don't eat more than you need.

Cheers
Mark

Pretty much what I'd have said.

I did no exercise over Christmas, (don't normally do a lot, but even walking the kids to school and back IS exercise) and although I didn't weigh myself, I definitely noticed a 'thickening' around the old waist line.
I read an article in the Times a while back and subsequently bought a book for £8 by Dr John Briffa - 'Waist Disposal...' - no hard sell diet, no crazily excessive regimen, but a lot of carefully discussed reviews of research showing what we should and shouldn't eat. - The big surprise for me was reduce, (but don't stop) carbs, DO snack, (on nuts, etc) - in short, be a 'conscious eater' - so take your time over the meal, chew your food, put your cutlery down as you chew, etc - I tell you what, it sure as hell works - and since Christmas and New Year excesses, the waist is already slimming down again and I feel less sluggish.

None of the above is supposed to be a brag just putting in my ha'penny for what definitely works for me.

Cheers and Happy New Year to all,

Greg
 

Benchwayze

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Jacob.
Bread does make us obese as you say. But it isn't the fat in the bread that does the damage. it is the sugars, and these cause an insulin response. (and wind!) The body will use the carbo fuel, but what it doesn't need, it lays down as actual body-fat. As I said before any fat you digest, is either used for fuel or evacuated by natural means; NOT laid down as body-fat. So fat doesn't make you obese.


Now I know what you went through when you described your 'minority' way of sharpening! And I empathise. :wink:

THANKS GREG! I read Dr. Briffa's book when I started my research. he's not alone in his ideas, by a long, long. chalk.

Seems that Trim believes fat hardens the arteries, when it does nothing of the sort. Arteries get blocked by the body's attempts to repair thinning artery walls with plaque, not cholesterol. Sometimes a little lump of plaque breaks off takes a short journey, and then and wham! Infarction!

But of course someone said I am being silly! So now I am chucking my so-called shovel away.



FINI

John :wink:
 

TrimTheKing

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Benchwayze":3mku9ir7 said:
And if stress does NOT cause heart attacks, please tell me Trim, what does?
I think know what you'll say, and I'll say you are misinformed too.
Hi John

I'm not here to argue with you, but please re read my post. I didn't say that, what I said was, in reply to your comment that stress is what causes heart attacks more than food.

I gave you two instances, one where stress would be the major factor and the other where food would definitely be.

I think that shows that I am seeing both sides of this in balance, whereas you seem to be dismissing food as a factor out of hand. If anything, you yourself (and by 'you' I mean humans) are the one doing the damage, the food isn't forcing itself into our mouths...

Thanks
Mark
 

Benchwayze

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Mark,

I know exactly what you mean.

But I don't happen to believe that any food causes heart attacks.

Stress causes a genuine heart attack, which is why many people are at risk very soon after a bereavement. (He/she died of a 'broken heart. Common occurrence, caused by stress. This very scenario was featured this morning on Beeb One as it happens..)

The only way food can cause a heart attack is by making us obese, which stresses the heart.

I am simply disagreeing on which foods make us obese. I believe it's excess carbs that cause the damage, because the body can't convert them into fuel so readily. Meat products and saturated fats on the other hand are easily used, and what is not used is passed out of the body, harmlessly. (Unless you had an ultra hot curry the night before!) :)
Cheers and PAX

John
 

StevieB

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Benchwayze":33wzv5lr said:
StevieB":33wzv5lr said:
Oh dear, now you are just making yourself look silly John. When in a hole stop digging would be my advice. I shall bow out of this thread now as it seems to be getting nowhere.

Steve


Most of the world's population once thought the Earth was flat. Until it was proven otherwise.
Now most of us believe it is somewhat spherical. There's no evidence to say otherwise.

However, there is evidence to support all that I have just said, if you want to look for it, and read it.

Read it with an open mind though. or you will just rubbish it, as you just rubbished me.

Obviously Steve your mind is closed so I am wasting my time. But please don't accuse me of being silly, just because I don't fall in with the accepted line of teaching, which my reading and research leads me to believe is wrong.

If I am wrong, then I will soon die of hardened arteries and ballooning weight, caused by my enjoyment of fish, fowl and meat!

John :wink:

Sigh - OK, I'll bite...

Can you back any of your statements with evidence John? My evidence comes from having a BSc and a PhD, working for 15 years in the field of genetics, cardiovascular genetics, cerebrovascular genetics and atheroscelrosis, having over 50 peer reviewed publications in these areas and securing grant funding for research from, among others, the British Heart Foundation. I also teach medical students in these areas. I would happily concede that I don't know everything, but I do know how to judge scientific information and how to test a hypothesis and draw conclusions based on those tests. You are perfectly entitled to your views, but you are correct, I do consider some of them ill informed, incorrect and somewhat silly. That has nothing to do with not falling in with the accepted line of teaching, and everything to do with you making statements that you do not back with evidence, as well as making statements that go directly against scientific data. Coupled with factual inaccuracy (a heart attack is not caused by stress - google is your friend here if you don't believe me) and in a later post you state that

Arteries get blocked by the body's attempts to repair thinning artery walls with plaque, not cholesterol

Which is also factually incorrect. Atherosclerosis - the build up of fatty deposits on the arterial wall as a consequence of excess cholesterol in your blood stream - is diet related and has been shown to be present in neonates through maternal diet as well. These fatty streaks cause oxygen depravation to the tissues they cover and are pro-inflammatory. The body responds to this by coating the lipid with a layer of smooth muscle cells and endothelial cells, which results in a necotic core of lipid and and a covering of acellular material. This grows as macrophages move into the area in response to the pro-inflammatory stimuli and the whole lot forms a plaque as it extends into the lumen of the blood vessel. This narrows the artery, reduces blood flow and, in extremis, can rupture and cause a thrombus which can then either cause a heart attack or stroke depending on where it lodges in the body.

If you want to have a scientific debate in an open forum then I am happy to rise to the challenge. Or you could simply ask us all to believe its due to wheat without any evidence to confirm this and let people make their own mind up. You are correct - you will not convince me its due to wheat, but thats not because I have a closed mind, its because I have seen the evidence (and even generated some of it) and made my own mind up on that basis.

Steve
 

Harbo

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It sounds like a few folks on here with wheat allergies are distorting the real facts.
And what works for you does not always apply to others?
Most sensible advice is for a balanced diet of modest proportions unless of course you are allergic to some types of food.
If you saw the BBC programme on human evolution it stated that our saliva contains many more enzymes for digesting carbs than our nearest relatives the Chimpanzee ( who are mainly vegetarian). The implication is that our bodies were designed to process carbs.
The programme also featured a existing tribe of African hunter/gatherers. The men all go off everyday traveling many miles to hunt for meat whilst the women folk gather vegetable matter.
More often than not the men return empty handed and have to rely on the food the women have gathered.
So whilst classed as hunter gatherers their main source of food is carbohydrates.
 

RogerS

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StevieB":2hdn9z8u said:
Jacob":2hdn9z8u said:
StevieB":2hdn9z8u said:
.... What you are actually saying above is that wheat has a high calorific content. This means you don't need to eat much of it to exceed your bodies energy requriements and therefore put on weight.

Steve
In other words; it's fattening!

](*,)

+1

Ignore him. He's in troll mode again.

Jesus, Jacob. You dont half duck and dive. Your first post said that 'wheat was fattening'. Then I pointed out this was tosh and explained why. And now you are playing back to us what I told you as if it was your original post. Sometimes you talk sense but other times, you really talk b ollox.
 

Jacob

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StevieB":1plywb97 said:
....... - you will not convince me its due to wheat, but thats not because I have a closed mind, its because I have seen the evidence (and even generated some of it) and made my own mind up on that basis.

Steve
So are you saying that my weight loss had no connection with a no wheat diet?
The evidence was pretty clear for me - and the rationale is fairly obvious. In my opinion wheat is a major factor in western obesity - just think big mac. Partly the starch itself but also wheat products as vehicle etc.
This may well be unknown to medical science - I had two years of general illness and anxiety (cancer? ulcers? etc) and was scanned and tested in various ways, had two years on PPI pills before I twigged that simple cause was wheat. Not "allergy" just a more vague "intolerance". The doctors didn't know anything.
When I decided to try it the symptoms disappeared in a day and the excess weight followed more slowly.
 

marcros

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RogerS":skyuh35y said:
Benchwayze":skyuh35y said:
.....
However, there is evidence to support all that I have just said, if you want to look for it, and read it.

...

Go on then, John. Please give us the links.

+1
 

Jacob

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Coeliac or not (not, in my case) it's the no-wheat diet which resulted in my weight loss. Wheat is "fattening" in the sense of Steve's own words: don't need to eat much of it to exceed your bodies energy requriements and therefore put on weight.
Not sure why you are even bothering to argue!

PS just checked "coeliac" again http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeliac_disease
Definitely not me.
You may be confused because I'm talking about two separate things;
first that I had some sort of no-name wheat intolerance, self diagnosed after zero diagnosis from the profession
second that as a by product of giving up wheat in my diet I lost a lot of weight (and regained my health).
 

Harbo

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So Jacob you have a wheat intolerance - I am allergic to bananas and cucumber but I don't go around claiming they are Devil foods!
 

Jacob

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RogerS":1jx8ekqg said:
Jacob":1jx8ekqg said:
Coeliac or not (not, in my case) it's the no-wheat diet which resulted in my weight loss. Wheat is "fattening" in the sense of Steve's own words: don't need to eat much of it to exceed your bodies energy requriements and therefore put on weight.
Not sure why you are even bothering to argue!

I ask myself the same question, Jacob.

You come out with the grand statement 'wheat is fattening'. I then point out to you that wheat by itself is not fattening and guess what, surprise surprise, you suddenly start spouting the same thing as if it was your original idea.
Yes wheat is fattening by itself (it's the "starch" chemically close to "sugar" which ends up being metabolised into fat stored in the body) and also it's doubly fattening as a vehicle for other stuff which goes the same way.
You really take the biscuit. .....
No I don't I'm on a diet!
 

Benchwayze

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Steve.


http://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Cholester ... 626&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-We-Get-Fat- ... pd_sim_b_3


http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trick-Treat-Hea ... 728&sr=1-3


http://www.amazon.co.uk/Life-Without-Br ... 728&sr=1-6

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Cholester ... pd_sim_b_7


With the exception of the last book, I have read all of the above. The last one pretty much reiterated what most of the others said, so I skimmed it. So, there is part of the research on which I base my opinions. The rest I have gleaned from the net from people like Dr. Al. Sears. (Who unfortunately recommends foods I can’t afford or even obtain; grass fed beef and other cattle, wild Alaskan salmon and so on.) Far better for us than fat making bread that’s for sure!

I can’t match your qualifications and I am not saying you don’t know what you are talking about. You clearly do. However, from what I can sense, you will strongly disagree with all of these authors; each of whom has similar or maybe even better qualifications. If so, then okay. However, you and these people together, can’t ALL be right. Still, there is so much clear and sensible evidence in these books, that only a complete diehard for anti-fat would dismiss it. So, all of my reading leads me to believe that no matter how much research is claimed by academia , something is wrong with current thinking.

I happen to think these authors have thrown more than a few pebbles into the ‘establishment pond’, and not mere random pebbles for the sake of it. They have done their research and they can back up what they say. Even Dr. Ancel Keyes (whose ideas which started the whole circus) has been placed on record as saying that his initial findings about cholesterol might have been somewhat presumptive.

I wish I could scan some of the reports and studies for you, but as these books are on my Kindle, I can’t do that. All I can do Steve is ask you to get these books from your library and read them. With your qualifications you will no doubt glean more than I did, and you might even be given ‘food’ for thought.

Finally, I am sure your qualifications have more credence than those of at least one well-known, anti-meat campaigner. I certainly hope so. All the same, we are probably going to agree to differ, because I feel that you will still say I am being silly.

For Harbo.

I don't know about anyone else Rob, but I have no allergies and I am certainly not trying to distort anything. Just expressing my opinion, and boasting about my successful, enjoyable weight loss! :lol:

Regards
John :D
 

Jacob

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Harbo":l5sq8mv7 said:
So Jacob you have a wheat intolerance - I am allergic to bananas and cucumber but I don't go around claiming they are Devil foods!
Neither do I. You have missed the point too. Read it all again if you can be bothered.
 

Benchwayze

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Jacob,

I believe some Doctors do know. But most of them don't want to admit it, because they would be seen as heretics, or they wouldn't consider it because it just flies in the face of what they think they know.

Eating bread and other starches caused my obesity. Of that I am sure. I wouldn't say I have an allergy to bread as such, because I don't suffer terrible pains or cramps. But eating bread does give me stomach gas, and I seem to take down great gulps of air with it. It lies like lead in my belly, and I wonder why it took me so long to realise what was causing the problem. So I am convinced that bread makes us obese. (Or fat, as obesity is colloquially and incorrectly referred to.)

I should add that an inability to exercise enough went hand in hand with the starches. But had I known then, I would have kicked the starch into touch with my gammy leg! :mrgreen:

Cheers
John
 

Racers

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Hi, Folks

One of the best things to remember is.

The plural of anecdote isn't fact.

Pete
 

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