Has it really come to this?

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Smudger":3p7938mx said:
Aren't firefighters trained as paramedics?

As far as I can tell and purely based on research on the internet, the training is not comparable to a dedicated paramedic. But will bow to anyone in the fire service who can say one way or the other.
 
As far as I know (my firefighter friend retired a year or more ago) it is a voluntary thing, and many are trained, but not to the same degree as an ambulance service paramedic.

My point here is that we see so many of these stories which are seized upon and shown as evidence of 'PC gorn mad' or 'elf 'n safety gorn mad', whipped up by Richard Lidljohn and his ilk - and when examined, they just aren't true. You need a higher level of proof than some (often anonymous) reporter, often fixing the facts to fit into an agenda.

The result has been that many people actually seem to believe that firefighters and other public service workers really do have elf 'n safety inspectors dogging their footsteps, that the 'PC Brigade' will stop them acting sensibly. In most cases it just isn't true.

Incidentally, this also makes it very unlikely that in the cases where bureacracy (for that is what it really is) overcomes sense, any one will do anything, for fear of the Littlejohn/Mail/Express reaction.
 
Smudger":3g4m4kk1 said:
As far as I know (my firefighter friend retired a year or more ago) it is a voluntary thing, and many are trained, but not to the same degree as an ambulance service paramedic.

My point here is that we see so many of these stories which are seized upon and shown as evidence of 'PC gorn mad' or 'elf 'n safety gorn mad', whipped up by Richard Lidljohn and his ilk - and when examined, they just aren't true. You need a higher level of proof than some (often anonymous) reporter, often fixing the facts to fit into an agenda.

The result has been that many people actually seem to believe that firefighters and other public service workers really do have elf 'n safety inspectors dogging their footsteps, that the 'PC Brigade' will stop them acting sensibly. In most cases it just isn't true.

Incidentally, this also makes it very unlikely that in the cases where bureacracy (for that is what it really is) overcomes sense, any one will do anything, for fear of the Littlejohn/Mail/Express reaction.

We might see many of these stories. Indeed some might be exaggerated but in this case it is the report of an inquiry. Pretty hard to get the facts wrong. So this story is true and a damning indictment of where we have got to.

Here's a more detailed account from The Scotsman.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/Firemen-st ... 6117739.jp
 
Actually, that account looks pretty biased to me. How many questions were asked, how many were reported? The press does this all the time, choosing to use only the facts that fit the agenda they have decided in advance. The rest is discarded.

I would like to see the whole transcript before making a judgement, and then I would need to think about whether or not the officer did his duty properly, and if not was it because he was incompetent or made a misjudgement, or whether there was some interference which made him act as he did.

We are told
But a memo from Strathclyde Fire and Rescue chiefs four months earlier had banned the use of rope equipment for lifting members of the public to safety, the inquiry was told.
but not why that ban was put in place. It is easy to assume that it is for some trivial reason, but it may not have been. I would automatically assume that firefighters are trained and fit to use it and I'm not - so some other arrangements would be made for me, possibly such as used by mountain rescue teams.

Rooney's answers are his own judgement - we do not know if he has an axe to grind, or if he disagrees with his force's rules on this. If he was questioned on those matters it has not made the report, which is my point.

Alexander Dunne says that he saw she had a head injury, and that he 'just wanted to pull her out' - which may well have made her injuries worse, and even I with my teacher-first aid training know that you don't lug people with head injuries about, certainly not at the end of ropes.
 
These are reports of some evidence to an inquiry, not the totality of the evidence and not the conclusions.
 
RogerS":2ql6jknx said:
Smudger":2ql6jknx said:
Aren't firefighters trained as paramedics?

As far as I can tell and purely based on research on the internet, the training is not comparable to a dedicated paramedic. But will bow to anyone in the fire service who can say one way or the other.

I am ( or was until i moved and let my certification lapse) an "on call" paramedic - that is a second teir of volunteer paramedics who can be called out in the case of a major disaster, train crash, plane crash, terrorist incident etc - The training a firefighter (or policeman) volunteers to receive is the same as that recieved by an on call paramedic , i know this because there were several fire fighters on my course

Its pretty intensive training and covers everything you are likely to need to know to deal with trauma and keep a victim alive until the ambulances etc can get there - but it is not the same level as that given to first tier paramedics and ambulancemen - Our course took 2 nights per week for 12 weeks so a total of about 60 hours with a final examination based on response to a simulated incident.

However a first tier paramedics training is at minimum every day for 33 weeks, plus ongoing proffesional development once in post
 
Smudger":uzcvy28v said:
.

Alexander Dunne says that he saw she had a head injury, and that he 'just wanted to pull her out' - which may well have made her injuries worse, and even I with my teacher-first aid training know that you don't lug people with head injuries about, certainly not at the end of ropes.

absolutely - someone who has fallen 60ft + could easily have neck or spinal injuries and unless they are in real peril where they are (like for instance in a collapsing building, fire etc) should not be moved without a neck imobiliser and ideally a full stretcher - fire engines dont carry those - nor do first response paras.

imagine what the consequences might have been if the fire service had said sod it and pulled her out and she was paralysed as a result - that could result in a very expensive law suit with no guarantee of employers indeminity if a fireman had breached protocol.

Like i said higher up its easy to be brave and maverick sitting at your laptop - when your job, house, and family are on the line the potential consequences of your actions have to be weighed much more carefully
 
We're going off on a tangent, I think. I agree that there is a debate to be had whether bringing her up in a sling was a good or bad thing. But that was not the point of the articles. The reason given for not bringing her up was because of a memo forbidding this. There has been nothing said so far that this statement was a lie.

As for falling 60 ft, again we are making assumptions. 60ft vertically? Freefall? or a slope? But I digress.
 
But we don't know what the memo said - although it sounds a bit strange that this was done as a 'memo' - usually it would be a policy or a guideline. Perhaps this was a reminder to stick to a known rule.

If, as seems likely, it was a reminder not to move head and neck-injured victims until they were fully stabilised, and not to haul them on ropes, that would make perfect sense, surely?
 
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RogerS":ea6mugkg said:
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you want to watch that roger - you'll be sustaining a severe head injury and needing the paramedics ;)
 
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Laugh and the world laughs with you, cry and you cry alone.

Roy.
 
In the report from the Scotsman Chem the chief stated that they would have used that piece of equipment upto the days before the memo.
I agree with what you say about on site though, things must be decided in context. Equally I remember giving a pain killing injection to a badly injured fork lift driver when the medic refused to enter the hole.
My comments to him would result in a padlocking!

Roy.
 
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