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Hardpoint v Standard

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MickCheese

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Hi

I recently had to crosscut some 10foot 7"x1" cherry boards. I pulled out my Disston 10tpi 24" crosscut saw and set about the boards. This is not blunt in any way but was not as easy as I anticipated. I broke out a fairly new Wickes hardpoint saw.

It was a lot easier.

So my question is.

Can a well sharpened standard saw match a new hardpoint?

Mick
 

Cheshirechappie

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The simple answer is - whatever works!

I think to rough-saw 1" hardwoods, I'd break out the 26" x 7tpi, which would give the hardpoint a run for it's money. If trimming neatly to length, maybe the panel saw for the better finish and less breakout on the underside of the cut, and accept that it'll take a few seconds more.

However, as you rightly say, don't diss hardpoints - they do the job.
 

Dangermouse

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The old " standard" saws were each made for a certain use, the hard point is a jack of all trades. But if you put up a good sharp standard saw against it (and in your case a long and big toothed saw around 7tpi would be the one for the job) i'm sure it would be the best.
 

jimi43

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I just sawed a large diameter yew log to square up the end...I used an old standard point around 100 years old...nicely sharpened and it took a few minutes.

Hardpoints are ok for everyday use...but I enjoy using old tuned tools when I want the best.

Jim
 

Modernist

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Yes but the hard point is only new once whereas the disston etc can be renewed indefinitely.
 

Cheshirechappie

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Modernist":8h0e64k2 said:
Yes but the hard point is only new once whereas the disston etc can be renewed indefinitely.
True, but you can buy about 10 hardpoints for the price of a Disston, sawset and files.

(Jimi's point about the pleasure of use is very true, though. Provided commercial considerations do not apply.)
 

GazPal

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Cheshirechappie":317xy3m7 said:
Modernist":317xy3m7 said:
Yes but the hard point is only new once whereas the disston etc can be renewed indefinitely.
True, but you can buy about 10 hardpoints for the price of a Disston, sawset and files.

(Jimi's point about the pleasure of use is very true, though. Provided commercial considerations do not apply.)
A decently priced old Disston, S & J, etc. = £20 (If you shop wisely)
Saw set £1 - £10
Files = £4 (Size depending on tooth count and number depending on sharpening frequency)

Can potentially last a full professional career in daily use and if cared for, plus grips can be "moulded" to fit your hand and each saw can be re-purposed as it's blades wears. I still have three saws from my apprenticeship days 40yrs ago, but also have a number of saws I inherited.

Hard points x 10 = whatever duration you can milk from them, but potentially 1 - 2 (Or more) per week in professional use.

Hard points first came into vogue for those entering the trade as "jobbers" and who were unable to justify spending a few mins each day/week touching-up saw teeth.
 

Pete Maddex

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Hi,

You wouldn't mary someone with black teeth, would you? :wink:

I think all you need it a saw with less TPI.

Pete
 

pedder

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MickCheese":3nvvieko said:
This is not blunt in any way

9 tpi sounds perfect for me. Given it is not blunt, wich I have doubts about, it is sharpened with wrong angles and/or too much set.

Hard points can not be sharper, they just stay "sharp" longer.

Cheers Pedder
 

Alf

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Right saw tooth count and config. is the way to go - something you can tailor to your own preference with a resharpenable saw, but not with a hardpoint. Argument enough in favour of going old school.

fwiw, my preferred rough break-down saw is a 6ppi with 25° rake and 30° or so of fleam (reached after advice from Mike Wenzloff). Yeah, it'll need touching up with a file a little more often, but it achieves a nice combo of speed and clean cut. And no, it's not a Wenzloff. Alas.
 

woodbloke

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I re-potted my big maple tree the other day (it is wood after all :-" ) and the root ball was so solid the only way to make it smaller was to saw big lumps off it...this is sawing through compacted peat, stone and root :shock: :shock: I used my Grandad's old Skandvik standard from the 1960's which did the job admirably.

The saw teeth need a tad more that a wipe with a file now :roll: (hammer) - Rob
 

MickCheese

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pedder":3flfmym9 said:
MickCheese":3flfmym9 said:
This is not blunt in any way

9 tpi sounds perfect for me. Given it is not blunt, wich I have doubts about, it is sharpened with wrong angles and/or too much set.

Hard points can not be sharper, they just stay "sharp" longer.

Cheers Pedder
Thanks for all the replies.

I suppose Pedder that is the root of my question, if my standard saw is not as good as a hard point is it as sharp as it can be? Or put another way, can my standard saw be sharpened to match my hardpoint for performance?

Mick
 

mtr1

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I use hard points for all manor of site work, where I wouldn't want to use my grandfathers saws. Like the other day I had to trim an external corner on some skirting to allow a cabinet to fit, the previous woodworker had used a nail gun, and I rather think he thought it was a machine gun. The hard point just cut through with little damage to the blade, I don't have time to be peeing about sharpening a saw blade on site, so the hard points are perfect for this kind of work. But for cutting clean timber, my grandfathers saws take some beating, old S & Js.
 

jimi43

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I think most of us would use disposable saws for site use...for the very reason that the work that they do would inevitably blunt them and to use an old gem would be a bit cruel.

I think this is why this argument will never have a "right" answer...it's down to correct tool for the job again.

Jim
 

pedder

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jimi43":227qdjh2 said:
I think most of us would use disposable saws for site use
I'm not sure. A new good hard point saw is about 30€. A simple touch up of a blade that beginns to get dull takes not more than 10-15 minutes. So it depends how much one earns an hour. :)

Cheers
Pedder
 

woodbloke

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jimi43":1py2c5or said:
I think most of us would use disposable saws for site use...for the very reason that the work that they do would inevitably blunt them and to use an old gem would be a bit cruel.

I think this is why this argument will never have a "right" answer...it's down to correct tool for the job again.

Jim
...which reminded me. My old granddad's saw certainly wasn't a 'gem' in any sense of the word and it was the 60's version of a cheap, DIY saw, but...it is a Sandvik so decent Swedish steel. I've just spent 30 mins topping it out, re-shaping, re-setting and sharpening the teeth, so it's probably better now than it's been for decades.
Of all the tools that I've got in my 'shop that are worth hundreds of £££'s, this nasty, red plastic handled little saw is by far and away the most valuable to me - Rob
 

Cheshirechappie

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Interesting - a bit of a rootle round the American websites suggests quite a lot of experimenting going on with saw-tooth configuration, giving some spectacular results in circumstances ideal to a given combination of rake, fleam, slope and set. There seem to be people witha saw for every eventuality - ripping dry, thick hardwood, thin hardwood, thick not-so-dry softwood, thin ditto, cross-cutting dry thick... well, you get the idea.

Trouble is, most of us can't, or don't want to, afford a saw for every specific circumstance. So the manufacturers, not unreasonably, set their saws up to cover the full range of possibilities it might meet in the hands of different customers. So probably plenty of set to cope with not-very-dry softwoods, and filed more for long life between sharpenings than for speed of cut. Most of us don't experiment much, so don't know any different.

Maybe it's time we did tune our saws more to the work we usually do?

How should saws be filed and set for work in predominantly dry, temperate hardwoods? Should that be different for harder timber? What about softwoods? Should non-hardpoint saws ever be allowed near chipboard or MDF?
 

Karl

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I gave up on hardpoint saws a couple of years ago. They lose their edge too fast when cutting chipboard/MDF.

I bought a disston rip saw off the bay for £15, and regularly sharpen it which takes about 5 minutes. This serves for all my site needs, as well as being a damn good rip saw too.

Cheers

Karl
 

Richard T

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Karl":3g9mva7b said:
I gave up on hardpoint saws a couple of years ago. They lose their edge too fast when cutting chipboard/MDF.

I bought a disston rip saw off the bay for £15, and regularly sharpen it which takes about 5 minutes. This serves for all my site needs, as well as being a damn good rip saw too.

Cheers

Karl
Exactly - Give a man a saw and he'll saw for a day (or two) but teach a man how to sharpen a saw and etc.
 
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