Hand Tool Wish List 1399 Router Plane

[Jon the Bodger]

I think the height-adjustment nut must be inverted in order to work. Noy sure.

Yes, this is the case

That's interesting. I don't have to do this on the Record Routers I have. Both Record and Veritas blades have 3/8" square shafts and are the same height. I think the Stanley blades are a bit shorter, so do you invert the nut to ensure you can take a shallow cut on the first pass with a Stanley 071 using a Veritas blade?

 

[RayDonovan]

I think the height-adjustment nut must be inverted in order to work. Noy sure.

Yes, this is the case

That's interesting. I don't have to do this on the Record Routers I have. Both Record and Veritas blades have 3/8" square shafts and are the same height. I think the Stanley blades are a bit shorter, so do you invert the nut to ensure you can take a shallow cut on the first pass with a Stanley 071 using a Veritas blade?

Yes, I read it on my favorite online shop. I don't know if I can link it, I'm new here.

 

[tony_s]

Yes, I read it on my favorite online shop. I don't know if I can link it, I'm new here.

https://www.fine-tools.com/router-plane.html

Think it has sonething to do with the length of the threaded rod but I'm on hols at the moment and my stanley 71 is a long way away so I can't check it. It was quite a while ago when I bought the veritas cutters and my memory is not the best, but I do definitely remember that I had to turn the adjuster upside down to make it work.

 

[ZippityNZ]

The Quangsheng looks a great but at that price.

The second-hand Stanley 71 in my link above, sold last night for the equivalent of £106.71. I paid £65.63 for mine.

The 12mm blade is an ideal size.

 

[sploo]

I have mused on the possibility of making a Tyzack or Preston clone. Making a mold wouldn't be a big problem (I have a CNC machine), but the casting costs would likely be prohibitive unless done at volume.

Milling bodies directly from metal would be an option, but my machine would realistically only handle aluminium or brass, and neither are much fun to cut with a machine not intended for metal (i.e. no coolant delivery). Plus, alum tends to mark timber so isn't a great choice.

I assume any cold cast resins wouldn't be durable enough (even with metal powder additive), so unless someone has access to metal casting facilities a pipe dream is where it'll stay for me.

 

[Mr_Pea]

Guess you will never know unless you ask, funnily enough this is near my Vet's

https://www.premiercastings.co.uk/

Reverse Engineering
Reverse Engineering is the process of making a new component from an original. Premier Castings can utilise an existing component to reduce pattern costs and to manufacture a new part. Consideration would be given to contraction allowances, machining allowances, corrosion and wear. This technique is extensively used in the refurbishment of old vehicles, street furniture and municipal castings. Below are the 4 stages we completed for decorative brackets for a council.

Foundry Capcity
Jobbing foundry, casting from 0.5 kgs to 3000 kgs
Small batch castings 10 to 500 off

 

[Ttrees]

Thanks Sploo, there's some nice close ups on google images to ponder about.

So the Tyzack and Preston are the bees knees...
Doesn't look to be the hardest thing to make up from some steel plate and a bit of welding.
Are these flawless in design?

Tom

 

[sploo]

Thanks Sploo, there's some nice close ups on google images to ponder about.

So the Tyzack and Preston are the bees knees...
Doesn't look to be the hardest thing to make up from some steel plate and a bit of welding.
Are these flawless in design?

Tom

They're lovely to look at and nice to use (only tried at one of Paul Sellers' courses), but "different" to the Veritas and Stanley. I've got both of the latter (actually a few of the Stanleys, of various vintages) and they all have their own pros and cons. Indeed IRC Sellers recently had a blog trying to point out that the Preston isn't perfect.

With a steel plate, a bit of welding, maybe a plasma cutter or mill, you could certainly make a utilitarian looking (but quite functional) copy. 3D printing in metal is possible these days, but unlikely to be cheap for this size.

Milling one from a solid lump of steel/brass/aluminium would be feasible with a decent machine, but wasteful in terms of material removed.

If I were to make a copy I'd probably do it with V slots instead of square - so it could use the Stanley/Record/Veritas cutters.

 

[thick_mike]

Surely one of these would be reasonably easy to knock together from steel plate?

Is there a problem with making it from steel plate, cutting out the holes, epoxying a few nuts and studding onto it and bob’s your mother’s brother?

I know nothing about metalworking, some of you will have worked this out already

 

[Ttrees]

Bought a wee arc welder from Lidl for less than 50 euro not so long ago, will work great on this .
Its the size of a car battery.

I have a bag of allen keys, with one I ground square allready, although I might probably make another, as I ground it square past the bend, so it sits flat on it's side laying on the bench....
I could have chosen to go with a more difficult method and ground the shank only, retaining the shape of the hex, so could grind half the hex off the underside to get the widest cutter possible.

I will probably make another cutter or two, so not too bothered if I go with a differing plane design.
The question is...
Is it universally better to have the v profiled mortise?

I would be making mine to a tight tolerance, and definitely not copying the Veritas clamp on thread design.

I have some taps, but no good dies, so will have to get one...
What thread pitch do you recommend folks?

Was reading Paul Sellers Tyzack and Preston router plane blog, and I couldn't find anything to suggest that he has an issue about something in particular regarding them.
He did mention that tall handles can be tippy, but that's all I got from the blog.
I did gloss over the fairly new router plane video when it went onto youtube, and don't recall much either.
Could someone point me in the right direction, or state what the wee issues were that he wasn't over the moon about?

Sorry if its a bit of a thread de-railment, but these look like the basis for the Walke-Moore plane, I was looking at before, just wanting to see what design elements were preferable.

It aint winter yet, so no point about making a thread about it...
Still have to find some mild steel plate for the job.
Thanks folks
Tom

Thanks

 

[Trevanion]

I have some taps, but no good dies, so will have to get one...
What thread pitch do you recommend folks?

I've found RDG tools to be very fair on price for the very high-quality Presto Taps and Dies. Leagues above cheap sets from Aldi and the like, they're very sharp, cut far easier and last a long time even in harder materials like stainless which cheap sets would only last one or two tappings maximum. They're not the cheapest in the world but they're not silly money either and usually with these things you buy them as you need them and then you've got them for the rest of your life really so long as they're looked after and you don't snap them doing daft stuff #-o

As for thread pitch on the adjuster, I would actually consider something that's a finer thread like a Metric fine, BSF, UNF or even BA if it was really small threads. With a finer thread pitch, you would have an easier to dial in adjustment. With everything else like the handle threads, I would go metric standard/coarse as it's cheaper and easier to buy hardware. But I suppose it might be best to look at what taps you've got first and buy a die/dies accordingly

 

[AndyT]

Sploo, Mike, Ttrees,

I'm sure I've seen routers on eBay knocked up from mild steel. Well within the capacity of an old school workshop or a current home one. Nothing too demanding. Indeed, the body really doesn't need to be steel, as the number of home made wooden ones shows. Robert Wearing had a few suggestions along these lines.

So for a commercial offering, there could possibly be methods which would suit short runs better than castings would.

 

[MusicMan]

Yes, I've just got one, not used it yet but it feels nice in the hand and is well made. I may well make a larger Tufnol base as suggested above. Looking forward to using it.

 

[thick_mike]

Sploo, Mike, Ttrees,

I'm sure I've seen routers on eBay knocked up from mild steel. Well within the capacity of an old school workshop or a current home one. Nothing too demanding. Indeed, the body really doesn't need to be steel, as the number of home made wooden ones shows. Robert Wearing had a few suggestions along these lines.

So for a commercial offering, there could possibly be methods which would suit short runs better than castings would.

I think the attractive thing about the tyzack/Preston design is the wide base and visibility. Wooden versions seem closed and bulky by comparison, but this is all based on never having used a router plane in my life :lol:

It just seems a more stable configuration. But I’ve always used chisels and filler.

 

[sploo]

I have a bag of allen keys, with one I ground square allready...

...Is it universally better to have the v profiled mortise?

I have some taps, but no good dies, so will have to get one...
What thread pitch do you recommend folks?

Was reading Paul Sellers Tyzack and Preston router plane blog, and I couldn't find anything to suggest that he has an issue about something in particular regarding them.
He did mention that tall handles can be tippy, but that's all I got from the blog.
I did gloss over the fairly new router plane video when it went onto youtube, and don't recall much either.
Could someone point me in the right direction, or state what the wee issues were that he wasn't over the moon about?

The hex profile of an allen key will fit OK into the v groove style of the Stanley/Record/Veritas, so no need to grind that (only the slot to adjust the height).

I would suggest v profile as that blades seem more common.

I'd assume you shouldn't need a die - buy appropriate threaded rods for the handle mounts and blade adjustment column.

Blog post here: https://paulsellers.com/2019/07/just-saying/

Sploo, Mike, Ttrees,

I'm sure I've seen routers on eBay knocked up from mild steel. Well within the capacity of an old school workshop or a current home one. Nothing too demanding. Indeed, the body really doesn't need to be steel, as the number of home made wooden ones shows. Robert Wearing had a few suggestions along these lines.

So for a commercial offering, there could possibly be methods which would suit short runs better than castings would.

For something utilitarian; sure, but I suspect it might be difficult to (efficiently) create something from a flat steel plate that would look attractive for sale; at least not without some milling.

I assume you could cut the basic shape using a plasma torch quite easily (heck; it wouldn't even require CNC) but chamfering and making it look pretty would be a lot harder (can't throw a 6mm steel plate on the router table with a chamfer bit :mrgreen: )

I'd be more than willing to look into milling a prototype from dense foam or wood on the CNC machine, but it would only make sense if it were then possible to cast.

 

[AndyT]

Ah yes, dead right. It must be very hard as a manufacturer to innovate but find the sweet spot where the design works, manufacture is practicable, the price is affordable and the tool looks attractive.

 

[sploo]

Ah yes, dead right. It must be very hard as a manufacturer to innovate but find the sweet spot where the design works, manufacture is practicable, the price is affordable and the tool looks attractive.

Indeed. A 6mm steel plate for the size required wouldn't cost much, but once you've welded on the relevant upright bits, ground it so that it doesn't look like a bukkake job, drilled and tapped etc. etc. the time and cost adds up.

A quick search for 25mm thick steel plate tells me that a sheet large enough for around 100 bodies could be obtained for under £800 (i.e. £8 per body), but there'd be a lot of material to hog out - even with an appropriate CNC system, and then you still need to make all the rest of the parts.

I've no idea what casting costs are for low volume projects; but then each cooled cast will still need cleanup work, some milling, and certainly drilling and tapping.

 

[Ttrees]

Is there any other reason the v groove style is preferable other than being able to fit a regular allen key in it?
I will want a wider cutter than what would fit in the hole for the shank, so will be grinding down allen keys anyways, and probably want a few cutters, (I have a bag of large ones all the same size) Depending on how much effort it turns out, I may make a pair if it's that much of a boon to have two, possibly one with a spearpoint or something.

I would think of a hex shank a bit utilitarian also, and think a regular steel plate without milling done to replicate raised castings can still be done elegantly.
Might be just me though, eye of the beholder and all that

I was thinking I needed a die for the wheel, which would be of mild steel aswell, but I aint sure which design to base a copy on.
I never really looked at every component from a I'm gonna make that mindset, so not sure if all have threaded wheels...as I was sayin its a winter project :roll:

I hope this thread keeps going, its makin great reading
Thanks folks
Tom

 

[AndyT]

Answering my own post about utilitarian sheet steel routers, I see that there are a couple of models under the brand "Cowryman" offered in the usual place which are the sort of thing I was talking about. You could pay £53 for the small or £96 for the large, but with the most basic metalwork tools and skills, it would be simple to make your own.

 

[Locksy]

The question is do you think people would buy a 1399 type router plane made in England if it were priced similarly to the Veritas and Lie Nielson router planes and of a similar quality?

- I can easily attach a bit of polycarbonate sheet to it, as a subbase, if I want it to have a bigger contact 'face' area like the 1399 -

The key feature of this style over the record/Stanley style is the additional blade positions so you can reach out over tenons. Admittedly this can be achieved with a sub base and putting two like tenons together its just another way of doing it.