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Hand Tool Wish List 1399 Router Plane

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Locksy

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Hi,

Having been frustrated at the escalating prices of older tools for example a Tyzack 1399 for over £600 on eBay and Preston ones for more I am researching to see if their is an appetite out there for these tools. Lie Nielson in the USA and Veritas in Canada both make router planes similar to the old Stanley and Record 071 and Walke Moore make a very pretty Bronze 2500 but have struggled to cope with demand and they are very expensive.

The question is do you think people would buy a 1399 type router plane made in England if it were priced similarly to the Veritas and Lie Nielson router planes and of a similar quality?
 

Mr_Pea

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Judging by all the replies maybe not. I'm suprised one of (do I just mean one) the Chinese manufacturers hasn't started production.

If anyone does make one, make it compatible with the old Stanley / Record 71 router planes. That could be nice little earner judging by recent prices on ebay recently £20 for one iron etc...

Lie Neilsen make a 71 but that it has square irons
https://www.axminster.co.uk/lie-nielsen ... nes-701265

£140 sounds cheap (sold out) but it only has one iron.
No irons listed either.


Veritas has 2 irons for £150
https://www.axminster.co.uk/veritas-router-plane-701927
but the fence is an optional extra for £21

Are the Veritas irons backwards compatible with the old 71's ?

£15.35 on axminster but this ebay listing held a surprise
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Veritas-4mm- ... SwWkxdRvnY
Made in Taiwan ??? Doesn't say Veritas on the box
 

Woody2Shoes

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Locksy":k3wey4tg said:
The question is do you think people would buy a 1399 type router plane made in England if it were priced similarly to the Veritas and Lie Nielson router planes and of a similar quality?
Probably, but in what quantity - I've no idea - you'd need access to some reliable market data of sales of existing router planes. Personally, my Veritas one does everything I want it to - I can easily attach a bit of polycarbonate sheet to it, as a subbase, if I want it to have a bigger contact 'face' area like the 1399 - I seem to remember a post by Custard mentioning that he's done this, but with Delrin sheet or phenolic resin-based board or similar (can't remember exactly) which is probably more rigid than polycarbonate for a given thickness. Here's an example of the sort of thing, but ready-made and for an electric one: https://woodworkersworkshop.co.uk/produ ... 8-sub-base

Cheers, W2S
 

Trevanion

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I think there's still a market for another high-quality tool manufacturer based in Britain. I really don't see why the manufacturers already here and dying out don't pull their fingers out of their ears and stop singing LaLaLaLa and face the fact that they need to change with the times to survive. I mean most of them barely market anything at all, haven't changed anything in donkeys years and are outclassed in almost every way by the likes of Lie Nielsen, Veritas, Wood River, Quangsheng, etc... I think a British manufacturer, with good quality, varied line of tools that are marketed well would make good money if done right.

Imagine when the time comes that Paul Sellers keels over and all his tools get sold, I imagine the prices for them will be absolutely insane like £200 for a Record Spokeshave :shock:
 

Osvaldd

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Just what Mr_Pea said, I too am somewhat surprised chinese haven’t attempted to clone no 71 or 1399 router or any other fancy woodworking tools but I guess there isn’t that much demand for it otherwise they would’ve done it already. Paying £600 for a rare vintage tool is different than paying £600 for a brand new one. I would not want to spend more than £50 for a clone. :lol:

p.s.: anyone tried Cowryman router plane?
 

tony_s

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Trevanion":11g9dlry said:
I think a British manufacturer, with good quality, varied line of tools that are marketed well would make good money if done right.
What's your opinion of Clifton in this respect? I'd have thought they'd be ideally placed to produce a decent quality router plane
 

Trevanion

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tony_s":1ml5z343 said:
What's your opinion of Clifton in this respect? I'd have thought they'd be ideally placed to produce a decent quality router plane
I've never heard a single good thing about them recently unfortunately, I've even heard about people receiving some planes with seriously out of whack soles, some with quite bad pocking in the castings which shouldn't happen on a £300 hand plane. Even then if things were right, they're still an obscure manufacturer because you have to personally know that they exist, they don't advertise anywhere as far as I know and see. It also doesn't help that they only produce hand planes anymore, its a bit of a one-trick pony really and it means you won't have repeat customers if you only sell a small variety of planes. I understand they're a part of the larger Flinn-Garlick group now so they possibly can't expand into what they want to anymore like the old Clico morticer hollow chisels they used to produce.

Let's look at the Clifton block plane, In my opinion, it's one of the ugliest, clumsiest looking block planes on the market, which costs just shy of £290. Don't get me wrong, I know some people will like the look of it and it probably feels good to work with but it just isn't for me at all.



Now compare that to Lie Nielsen's 60 1/2 block plane, firstly, you've got the name that's synonymous with the absolute highest quality hand planes which has been built through good marketing and making good products. Secondly, it costs just over half (~£160) of what the Clifton does even after shipping it over from the USA. Also, Lie Nielsen have a broad range of tools which means people will keep coming back to them for the odd chisel, gouge and hand plane when they can afford it.


I really believe a new manufacturer could come along and shake the cobwebs off British hand tool manufacturing, market themselves right in line with the modern era and not what was right in line with 60 years ago. There's plenty of hobbists, tradesmen and industrial woodworkers screaming out for quality tools.
 

Mr_Pea

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I'd happily find room for a Clifton block plane but as you say its expensive, very expensive. Even if it was half price I'd still think twice about buying one.

The Lie Nielsen is indeed a quality tool but come on its 2019 not 1888 when the Stanley knuckle 18 was launched.

The block plane I do lust over is the Veritas DX60, I will one day own one of these
https://www.axminster.co.uk/veritas-dx6 ... s-ax932296

Anyway we digress, back on topic . Once upon time this century Lie Nielsen launched an adjustable mitre no.9
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lie-Nielsen- ... SwQKZdKle7
Think it retailed at £200 and has now achieved cult status. From memory they stopped production due to increased production costs. Guess they figured they weren't selling many and would sell even less if they raised prices.

Maybe someone with a better memory or search engine than me can remember, might be relevant to 1399 router planes.
 

AndyT

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I wouldn't want to start production of a new router based on the present state of the market. It's in a strange state from which it will recover.

I don't really think a significant number of hobby woodworkers will spend more than £100 on a router that they intend to use. The router is a useful tool but there are plenty of practical ways to make your own.

I think what happens is that people who spend a lot of time on eBay noticed a bit of a sudden rise in the price of common 71 style routers and the handful of others. So anyone who thought of themselves as a canny dealer who spotted one for less than their expected peak price bought it. They don't want them for use, but to sell at a profit when prices rise. Other dealers with an even more optimistic idea of the maximum price will buy these overpriced routers.
Some of the dealers will make a few quid this way but in the end the ones who paid more than any woodworker would will have to take the hit and drop their asking price.
 

RayDonovan

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Hi everybody, I'm Italian, just signed in and this is my first post. I bought a 71 two weeks ago. The price was 100 p. but I had to add 15p. for the shipping expenses. Why an old Stanley and not a Veritas? Being Italian I see things from a different perspective, old English stuffs are so well made, so beautifull and so fascinating, especially so fascinating, that they can't be confused with the new, modern ones. We don't have anything like that in Italy. I need 10 chisels to work .. I have around 150 of them. I have never used any chisel of my new Narex set, I prefer to spend a lot of time restoring Ibbotson, Ward, Sorby, Marples, Stormont chisels and find which is better (for me) and why. That's amazing. I don't crave a LV chisels set but an old Stanley 750 socket one :)
PS: sorry for my english
 

tony_s

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I'm surprised, given Italy's engineering heritage that there are no hand tool manufacturers. Especially, and this is my own non scientific observation, that there seems to be more enthusiasm for hand tool woodworking in Italy than in neighbouring European countries.
 

RayDonovan

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At the last flea market I went there were around 400 sellers. I found only two iron planes, a corrugated n.6 and a very old n.3 both Stanley. I bought them for 20 euro (17+3). Why so cheap? Because they don't know what they sell. 2 weeks ago I bought 2 NOS Disston saws for 20 euro. I felt like a thief.
The only planes that we have here are made of wood and are full of holes (sorry, I don't know the name for the wooden "worms", and they aren't good as the ones made in Germany (ULMIA and ECE are good examples of amazing tools made in Germany but they are quite expensive, a new wooden ECE router plane costs 100 euro.
That's why we go crazy for English tools.. they are expensive but we don't have any alternative.
 

El Barto

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Has anyone tried the Quangsheng version from Workshop Heaven? Smaller and arguably much uglier than a 71 but Quangsheng tools are generally pretty good.

I personally dislike using my Record 71, should have got a Veritas.
 

Jon the Bodger

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To answer the specific question about Veritas blades fitting in an old 071, I am using the Veritas blades in a Record 071 and 071½ and they are fine. As far as I can see the differences are:

The Record blades just had a slot on one corner of the shaft for the adjusting wheel to fit in whilst on the Veritas blades the slot goes right round the shaft.

The Veritas ½” flat blade and ½” V-point blade have removable feet for sharpening. I think only the Record V-point cutter had a removable foot.

My Record V-point blade (the only Record blade I have) has index marks for depth of cut but the Veritas ones don’t.
 

tony_s

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RayDonovan":3y12b0x3 said:
I think the height-adjustment nut must be inverted in order to work. Noy sure.
Yes, this is the case
 

thetyreman

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the veritas or lie neilsen is a bargain compared to an old one, I love my veritas router plane, was well worth what it cost.
 

Ttrees

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El Barto":32b12yo9 said:
Has anyone tried the Quangsheng version from Workshop Heaven? Smaller and arguably much uglier than a 71 but Quangsheng tools are generally pretty good.

I personally dislike using my Record 71, should have got a Veritas.
What don't you like about the Record?
I'm fairly sure Matt Estlea has mentioned he feels the Veritas one to have some niggles compared to the Lie-Nielsen, but I don't recall what these niggles were.

I want to copy the best one out there sometime in the future.
So anything related would make interesting reading.

Thanks
Tom
 
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