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Hand plane blade problem

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worker

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I have a Stanley no 4 and no 5 2nd hand planes.

Using a honing guide, I sharpened both blades but noticed blade for no 5 has more material removed on one side.

I compared both blades and there are only minor differences in shape so I can't figure why one side is being removed more.

The attached photo shows the result of honing - purple mark showing the problematic side. It's less then a mm but seems to be the cause of blade hanging more on one side when in use. I switched blades and didn't have the issue.

I've double checked to make sure I didn't misalign the blade during honing.

Any ideas?
 

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mikej460

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It could be a duff cutting iron or you are possibly applying too much pressure to one side. I use dry 120 grit sandpaper on a flat surface such as a granite tile or float glass, and draw the cutting iron towards me. Having said this I've had this problem with a CI that came with a 2nd hand No. 4 that I couldn't correct using sandpaper and in the end I ground it parallel on a white wheel bench grinder.
 

Ttrees

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Hello
It appears to me from the pictures you have a very very very blunt edge,
Do you have a bench grinder, sander, or a long lap, as that looks to me as there's a load of work to do
by hand.
Beware of overheating the edge, and have a wide container of water handy, try for within a second to dunk the iron after every pass.

If you're doing that on a stone and guide, I don't envy you, and suggest you don't!
It would take the night on even the coarsest hone.

All the best
Tom
 

worker

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It could be a duff cutting iron or you are possibly applying too much pressure to one side. I use dry 120 grit sandpaper on a flat surface such as a granite tile or float glass, and draw the cutting iron towards me. Having said this I've had this problem with a CI that came with a 2nd hand No. 4 that I couldn't correct using sandpaper and in the end I ground it parallel on a white wheel bench grinder.
I suspect it might be a duff iron as I used the same honing guide for other blades without problem. Any hints for fixing it with a diamond stone? That and sandpaper are the only 2 tools I have access to at the moment. I can 'fix' it with lateral adjustment but it annoys me quite a bit.

Hello
It appears to me from the pictures you have a very very very blunt edge,
Do you have a bench grinder, sander, or a long lap, as that looks to me as there's a load of work to do
by hand.
Yes, this is the result of running it over 300 grit diamond stone. I thought 'resetting' the blade might fix the issue, it case I misaligned it the first time - it was cutting quite nicely otherwise :)
 

TRITON

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Hello
It appears to me from the pictures you have a very very very blunt edge,
Do you have a bench grinder, sander, or a long lap, as that looks to me as there's a load of work to do
by hand.
Beware of overheating the edge, and have a wide container of water handy, try for within a second to dunk the iron after every pass.

If you're doing that on a stone and guide, I don't envy you, and suggest you don't!
It would take the night on even the coarsest hone.

All the best
Tom
I'm never going to show you my plane irons :LOL::ROFLMAO:
 

Ttrees

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Is picture two, the iron projecting from the plane.
I see a big facet, and I'm guessing it was someone who ground the iron square,
ie like Bill Carter's blunt chisel method.
Nothing to do with your hone, it was done previous.
It might have been a big nick in the iron as I see a bit of remaining damage two the middle/right
of the iron.
Someone could have done it to get past some pitting either, but the damage is there, so am suspecting the former.

Tom
 

Jacob

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If the edge is square then its a duff honing guide, nothing wrong with the blade. Set it a bit skewed so it takes off material where you want it to be taken off.
If the edge isn't square then the guide is probably straightening it up and that's what it would look like.
 

Ttrees

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Maybe it's just my eyes playing up, another piccy of the edge would make things clearer.
Looks like it's nowhere near a cutting edge of any description to be able to do anything yet,
just a blunt near vertical facet.
 

rob1693

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Doesn't look like you've got nowhere near the Edge yet as well as been skewed straighten it up and keep going till it reflects no light and you can feel the burr on the back side
 

mikej460

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If you don't have a bench grinder buy a good 2nd hand CI or it will be the death of you..
 

worker

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After doing some more digging, I'm starting to think the issue is actually the frog.

I have 2 no 4s, a Stanley and hilka.

I put the no 5 blade in stanley no4 and it was still skewed. I put it in Hilka and it was OK.

Looks like I have the same problem as this fella Frog adjustment problem

Not sure how much effort is involved in fixing it but I gotta admit I'm not enjoying this so far. Would I be better off binning the lot and trying my luck with another set on eBay?

Re replies about blunt edge, yes, I ran it over 300 grit diamond stone hoping a reset would fix it. My sharpening skills are still a WIP :)

The 2nd pic is of protruding blade from plane sole.
 

Ttrees

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Aye, you need to grind that edge so.
A somewhat bearable way by hand would be having a large plate and some sandpaper clamped down tight, or use some motorised device like a grinder if you have one.
When you have about a hair of that strangely steep "secondary bevel" left,
you should go to the hones or a fine abrasive like a fancy 240g
(fancy) as in not a 240 grit paper from the pound shop which sheds everywhere,
You can tell a fancy abrasive by the finger test, if will it shed loads of grit when rubbed or gently scratched, or not.
It will cause micro chipping of your edge if you have grit everywhere.

The hone should be used when you've got a burr on the back side, or very close to getting a burr, as it would take more time again to get past that chipping that might occur.

Do it with a hone either, but you need to have the majority of the work done faster than what a wee hone can do.
This is not a normal occurrence, and you can put away the lap once you're finished, the hone should
be able to refresh the primary bevel a good few times before the secondary bevel...
(which you have, and a very very steep one at that) gets too large, and takes too much time to rehone.

Regardless of opinion on secondary bevels, you have one, it's the best way of explaining it,
what one might call a steep facet if they like...
and needs to be removed.



The planes are likely fine, you will get a much better idea if your frog is skewed or not, when you get that iron sharp across the entire width of the cutter, it will square up if the iron is an equal thickness, which it looks to me, and would be quite unusual if it were not.

The bevel is longer on the right as that iron was skewed before, it will even out once the material from the tip is removed....
It looks like you intend to be aiming for a
straight enough cutter, i.e for smoothing or fine panel work.
Which isn't a bad thing, just as long as you don't intend to do real heavy work, you will have plane tracks and a bit more resistance.
Just incase you presume the frog might be at fault.


Tom
 
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Jacob

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After doing some more digging, I'm starting to think the issue is actually the frog.

I have 2 no 4s, a Stanley and hilka.

I put the no 5 blade in stanley no4 and it was still skewed. I put it in Hilka and it was OK.

Looks like I have the same problem as this fella Frog adjustment problem

Not sure how much effort is involved in fixing it but I gotta admit I'm not enjoying this so far. Would I be better off binning the lot and trying my luck with another set on eBay?

Re replies about blunt edge, yes, I ran it over 300 grit diamond stone hoping a reset would fix it. My sharpening skills are still a WIP :)

The 2nd pic is of protruding blade from plane sole.
The frog should be dead in line with the back of the mouth so that the blade is tight against both of them. Adjusting frogs is just another esoteric tendency amongst the enthusiasts but isn't a good idea if you just want to plane wood.
 

worker

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The planes are likely fine, you will get a much better idea if your frog is skewed or not, when you get that iron sharp across the entire width of the cutter, it will square up if the iron is an equal thickness, which it looks to me, and would be quite unusual if it were not.
So this is what I tried yesterday, I did the entire blade again with 300 grit stone, removing any secondary bevel and it still came out skewed. (Am aware this will leave it blunt for now) I can't finger the problem as visually everything looks OK with honing guide (bought from ITS) and I've used other blade on it without issue.

The frog should be dead in line with the back of the mouth so that the blade is tight against both of them. Adjusting frogs is just another esoteric tendency amongst the enthusiasts but isn't a good idea if you just want to plane wood.
Visually everything looks fine. But I did more testing today, swapping frogs, etc.

It seems something is wrong when no5 frog sits on the base. I put a washer from no4 between frog and base on the side dropping too much and it straightened up to a level I'm much happier with. I have a spare washer I can grind down to the right size which will hopefully sort this out once and for all.

Maybe I was too enthusiastic with sandpaper on that side when cleaning it up. I genuinely can't remember it being skewed when I used it first few times.
 

Ttrees

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Hello again
A 300 grit hone obviously isn't cutting the mustard, you need a larger and more aggressive surface to get to the edge.
9.JPG


There is a lot of material to get down to, and at that a lot of skew to remove when you get to the edge on the left, and when you are just about removing the edge on the right, then switch to your aggressive hone.

What you might be experiencing is the fit between cap iron on differing planes, if one is tighter than the other, it might not be possible to align the skewed iron with the sole.

I was trying to get you a video of someone removing a chipped iron on the grinder,
without success.
It's the same approach as Bill Carter's blunt chisel method, this non beveled grind is done because there's less chance of overheating the metal without a bevel,
Compared to grinding a chip out of an edge if ground at 23 degrees primary bevel, which can overheat the edge and loose the temper, often referred to as bluing the edge.

I'd be looking for a roll of sandpaper, or a used grinder, rather than chasing what is likely to be a red herring.

All the best

Tom
 

Jacob

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...

Not sure how much effort is involved in fixing it but I gotta admit I'm not enjoying this so far. ...
...
No effort involved in fixing it - you've got to line up the face of the frog with the edge of the mouth so that they are co-planar and the blade will sit flat on them so that it gets as much support as possible. Sight though both ways from top and through the mouth. If in doubt try a torch with a focussing beam - it will show up highs and lows
If the blade is skewed then grind it a bit to skew it the other way.
 

worker

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What type of honing guide are you using?
I bought this from ITS: Vaunt Honing Guide - it has a stamp on the side telling me lengths to use for 25c and 30c angles

I'm not so concerned right now about blade sharpness, just want the thing to protrude level from the sole.

No effort involved in fixing it - you've got to line up the face of the frog with the edge of the mouth so that they are co-planar and the blade will sit flat on them so that it gets as much support as possible. Sight though both ways from top and through the mouth. If in doubt try a torch with a focussing beam - it will show up highs and lows
If the blade is skewed then grind it a bit to skew it the other way.
Apologies, I'm a bit unclear. You're saying repositioning the frog will solve the issue? I have moved the frog forwards and backwards and each time I get the same result. But when I put a washer underneath the frog it made the blade 99% level. Is grinding the blade skew the opposite way also going to help with levelling?
 

Ttrees

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I was suggesting the geometry won't be correct until you remove the skew.
Get a square, square... and draw a line with a thin marker on the iron, and you will see the cutter is skewed.
You need to get it closer to square, which will also have an effective result in the iron getting sharpened at the entire width of the cutters edge at the same time.

What you're messing around with is the Azimuth error.
You don't normally hear about that with the Bailey pattern, but is a problem for some other planes.
To do a quick fix of that on the fly, folks have intentionally skewed the bevel.
This is a rabbit hole that you should not go down, as it is a red herring.

Should be plenty of tutorials on grinding by hand, you don't need a honing guide yet, use it later if you like, but it's not important yet since there's so much material needing to be removed.

Tom
 

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