Great British Workshop on Wed
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Philly
Established Member
Guys,
Oh dear, when I saw the dado come out last night I nearly died-Scrit is going to lose it biggo!!!
Well, you can't do a "New Yankee" copy without a "New Yankee" dado...
love and cringes,
Philly
Oh dear, when I saw the dado come out last night I nearly died-Scrit is going to lose it biggo!!!
Well, you can't do a "New Yankee" copy without a "New Yankee" dado...
love and cringes,
Philly
A
Anonymous
Guest
I didn't see the one with the dado head, but i've watched some of the others.
He expains his techniques pretty well I think, getting information across well, but the show is designed 'to educate the uneducated' and I don't mean this in a derogitory sense, simply that the show is designed as both entertainment but also to give information and ideas to the home woodworker, which in theory encompasses a lot of people without formal wood machinery training.
I don't have a problem with a disclaimer saying that guards are removed for photographic purposes, but in the majority of events these can be shown with the machine stationary to show what is happening before putting the guards on to make the cut, or even halfway through the operation with the machine stationary. Safety should be paramount on a show designed for the UK market. America has different rules so we have to live with it.
It strikes me that the H&L channel want the presenters to put entertainment over good advice, which I suppose is what the show is about, but it can be an accident waiting to happen, especially as they all have kit that is designed for professional use, not a sub £200 table saw and whatever else the end user can afford.
I would much prefer to see a truly British show, based on current legislation where host makes things 'properly' using the correct machine for the correct job, and maybe with a lower budget on the tool side of things, so more 'decent entry level' workshop machinery, maybe around the £3-700 mark depending on the machine.
All the current crop can put up as many disclaimers as they like, but there is always a situation where the cut they are making is impossible to do with the guard in position, and this is implying that it's OK to do.
What you do in your own home is entirely up to you, but a programme that is designed to educate amateur (again, not derogitory) woodworkers should be educating them in the correct, safe manner.
Cutting corners once you are qualified is an option taken at your own risk. An employer can be taken to court for trying to make you use machinery unguraded, or outside of its designed scope.
That is why the HSE post information relating to accidents in the woodworking industry, and also try to keep a tight rein on the uses of machinery. It is unusual to hear of an accident where all guarding was in place and pushsticks were used.
That said, it still amazes me that the good old USA can allow someone to sue a fast food chain for putting hot coffee in a cup and failing to let the drinker know, yet hasn't had lawsuit after lawsuit over limb and digit amputations from poor safety advice.
I suppose the ideal thing to do would be start a company up along the lines of 'Had an accident after watching the Great British/New Yankee Workshop? Cut your fingers off? You may be entitled to compensation.'
Get someone to dial this number xxxxxxxxxxx and make a claim. (You won't be able to do it yourself, your digits will be in a bag of frozen peas, awaiting micro surgery!)
Andy
He expains his techniques pretty well I think, getting information across well, but the show is designed 'to educate the uneducated' and I don't mean this in a derogitory sense, simply that the show is designed as both entertainment but also to give information and ideas to the home woodworker, which in theory encompasses a lot of people without formal wood machinery training.
I don't have a problem with a disclaimer saying that guards are removed for photographic purposes, but in the majority of events these can be shown with the machine stationary to show what is happening before putting the guards on to make the cut, or even halfway through the operation with the machine stationary. Safety should be paramount on a show designed for the UK market. America has different rules so we have to live with it.
It strikes me that the H&L channel want the presenters to put entertainment over good advice, which I suppose is what the show is about, but it can be an accident waiting to happen, especially as they all have kit that is designed for professional use, not a sub £200 table saw and whatever else the end user can afford.
I would much prefer to see a truly British show, based on current legislation where host makes things 'properly' using the correct machine for the correct job, and maybe with a lower budget on the tool side of things, so more 'decent entry level' workshop machinery, maybe around the £3-700 mark depending on the machine.
All the current crop can put up as many disclaimers as they like, but there is always a situation where the cut they are making is impossible to do with the guard in position, and this is implying that it's OK to do.
What you do in your own home is entirely up to you, but a programme that is designed to educate amateur (again, not derogitory) woodworkers should be educating them in the correct, safe manner.
Cutting corners once you are qualified is an option taken at your own risk. An employer can be taken to court for trying to make you use machinery unguraded, or outside of its designed scope.
That is why the HSE post information relating to accidents in the woodworking industry, and also try to keep a tight rein on the uses of machinery. It is unusual to hear of an accident where all guarding was in place and pushsticks were used.
That said, it still amazes me that the good old USA can allow someone to sue a fast food chain for putting hot coffee in a cup and failing to let the drinker know, yet hasn't had lawsuit after lawsuit over limb and digit amputations from poor safety advice.
I suppose the ideal thing to do would be start a company up along the lines of 'Had an accident after watching the Great British/New Yankee Workshop? Cut your fingers off? You may be entitled to compensation.'
Get someone to dial this number xxxxxxxxxxx and make a claim. (You won't be able to do it yourself, your digits will be in a bag of frozen peas, awaiting micro surgery!)
Andy
Andy,
I don't have a problem with the disclaimer either its just they never have the gaurds in place and they also carry out procedures which can only be done with out the gaurd like cutting rebates and nibling tennons.
Signal
I don't have a problem with the disclaimer either its just they never have the gaurds in place and they also carry out procedures which can only be done with out the gaurd like cutting rebates and nibling tennons.
Signal
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hi Signal,
Exactly so!
It is this type of operation that gives a complete novice the idea that this is the correct way to do things. Even if this was a 'legal' method, try it on a saw that costs over £1000, is cast iron and induction motored and has an £80 sawblade in it, and then try it on a sub-£150 tin boxed, ribbed aluminium tabled, brush motored saw that shakes your fillings out of your teeth when you use it and you may consider a different method anyway.
Perhaps they ought to base the programmes around one of these!
Andy
Exactly so!
It is this type of operation that gives a complete novice the idea that this is the correct way to do things. Even if this was a 'legal' method, try it on a saw that costs over £1000, is cast iron and induction motored and has an £80 sawblade in it, and then try it on a sub-£150 tin boxed, ribbed aluminium tabled, brush motored saw that shakes your fillings out of your teeth when you use it and you may consider a different method anyway.
Perhaps they ought to base the programmes around one of these!
Andy
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hi Andy, Signal et al
We obviously have been havin the same thoughts. This is an email I have just sent to them. I'll post the reply when I get it.
'Firstly, I would like to thank Discovery Home and Leisure for showing woodworking on the television. Please be assured that I am trying to be constructive. GBW and David Free is a vast improvement over ‘BOYZ’ and John’s Workshop.
I have found the Great British Wood Shop very interesting, particularly as most of the equipment, with the exception of the Delta Unisaw, is available in this country and some of it I have myself.
I have assumed that you are aiming the show at amateur woodworkers in the UK. Now, as far as I am aware, the average woodworker in this country works out of a single garage or a similar sized space. If you are serious about aiming the show at amateur woodworkers in the UK, working out of a single garage, why bother importing a saw for the show that will not fit into the average woodworker’s available space and that very few people could even afford (to import)?
Due to the electric braking, you cannot buy a CE marked table saw in the EU today with an arbor long enough to take a stacked dado head cutter such as the one used in the show last night. All that happens is the people new to woodworking will ask the question why can’t I have a dado cutter in my saw. Web sites continually get clogged up with the question.
Why doesn’t David Free only use equipment that is freely available within the UK/EU and also only make cuts that can be achieved WITH the safety guards in place? If you must show a cut with the guards off, why don’t you just switch the power off the machine?
I belong to a group of UK woodworkers on the Internet and one of the threads currently running is trying to find out which table saw people are using. The current leader is the Scheppach and I believe it is the model 2500.
Surely, the show would instantly become much more interesting to woodworkers in the UK if a sub one thousand pound saw was used and dadoes were cut using the router and a jig.
I realise that a separate jointer and thicknesser is used for speed but, due to space constraints, the combined planer/thicknesser is the machine of choice for most UK woodworkers.
I look forward to receiving your response.'
Cheers
Neil
We obviously have been havin the same thoughts. This is an email I have just sent to them. I'll post the reply when I get it.
'Firstly, I would like to thank Discovery Home and Leisure for showing woodworking on the television. Please be assured that I am trying to be constructive. GBW and David Free is a vast improvement over ‘BOYZ’ and John’s Workshop.
I have found the Great British Wood Shop very interesting, particularly as most of the equipment, with the exception of the Delta Unisaw, is available in this country and some of it I have myself.
I have assumed that you are aiming the show at amateur woodworkers in the UK. Now, as far as I am aware, the average woodworker in this country works out of a single garage or a similar sized space. If you are serious about aiming the show at amateur woodworkers in the UK, working out of a single garage, why bother importing a saw for the show that will not fit into the average woodworker’s available space and that very few people could even afford (to import)?
Due to the electric braking, you cannot buy a CE marked table saw in the EU today with an arbor long enough to take a stacked dado head cutter such as the one used in the show last night. All that happens is the people new to woodworking will ask the question why can’t I have a dado cutter in my saw. Web sites continually get clogged up with the question.
Why doesn’t David Free only use equipment that is freely available within the UK/EU and also only make cuts that can be achieved WITH the safety guards in place? If you must show a cut with the guards off, why don’t you just switch the power off the machine?
I belong to a group of UK woodworkers on the Internet and one of the threads currently running is trying to find out which table saw people are using. The current leader is the Scheppach and I believe it is the model 2500.
Surely, the show would instantly become much more interesting to woodworkers in the UK if a sub one thousand pound saw was used and dadoes were cut using the router and a jig.
I realise that a separate jointer and thicknesser is used for speed but, due to space constraints, the combined planer/thicknesser is the machine of choice for most UK woodworkers.
I look forward to receiving your response.'
Cheers
Neil
Newbie_Neil
Established Member
Hi
I forgot to sign in. :roll:
Cheers
Neil
I forgot to sign in. :roll:
Cheers
Neil
CYC
Established Member
Can't wait for their response too :lol:
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hi Neil,
chances are you will get a reply, but whether it answers your queries is another story.
I sent them an email a couple of years back when 'John's workshop' was first aired, and he had his table saw set up for vertical tenon cutting if I remember correctly, with the usual 'guards removed etc etc...' I pointed out that you can't make that cut with the crown guard in position, so it is misleading the viewer. I also offered to advise them on safety for general cutting shots on subsequent shows if they wanted me to.
I did get a reply saying that my comments had been noted and someone would be back in touch shortly.
OK, what happened next?
Correct! Nothing.
I haven't heard anything at all, either on my initial query, or my offer to look at general safety shots.
As I said earlier, entertainment seems to be higher rated than safety procedures.
You have an excellent point about the home workshop as well. While we would all like a workshop the size of a barn to work in, we invariably have to make do with whatever we can. Again, perhaps they could try a show under these constraints instead of the clinical, perfect conditions they normally show!
chances are you will get a reply, but whether it answers your queries is another story.
I sent them an email a couple of years back when 'John's workshop' was first aired, and he had his table saw set up for vertical tenon cutting if I remember correctly, with the usual 'guards removed etc etc...' I pointed out that you can't make that cut with the crown guard in position, so it is misleading the viewer. I also offered to advise them on safety for general cutting shots on subsequent shows if they wanted me to.
I did get a reply saying that my comments had been noted and someone would be back in touch shortly.
OK, what happened next?
Correct! Nothing.
I haven't heard anything at all, either on my initial query, or my offer to look at general safety shots.
As I said earlier, entertainment seems to be higher rated than safety procedures.
You have an excellent point about the home workshop as well. While we would all like a workshop the size of a barn to work in, we invariably have to make do with whatever we can. Again, perhaps they could try a show under these constraints instead of the clinical, perfect conditions they normally show!
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hi Andy
I believe that they are missing a real opportunity for a winning show.
I realise they need more space to allow for cameras etc. but they could limit the area housing the actual machines to something approaching the size of a single garage.
We shall see.
Cheers
Neil
I believe that they are missing a real opportunity for a winning show.
I realise they need more space to allow for cameras etc. but they could limit the area housing the actual machines to something approaching the size of a single garage.
We shall see.
Cheers
Neil
A
Anonymous
Guest
At the risk of sounding like a complete git lets drop the stacked dado head cutter BS, ok safety safety safety . We all must know by now you can acheive the same effect with 1 or even 2 straight edge guides and a router . We do not need to keep covering the same groud, lets all move on . I am sure all the ranting n ravin is not going to make a blind bit of difference .
Aonbium,
it aint just about stacked dados, its about getting some one to make a decent program for the british market using availble equipment which complies to our safety rules.
If your happy just watching Norm and duplicates then fine, however I think the broadcasters have a responsibility to produce a program which does reflect the above issues.
Yes you know how to create a housing with a router and straight edge, as do I and 99% of the people on this forum, But how many people gettig into woodworking through the likes of H+L wouldnt.
Hope this doesnt sound ranty, it aint meant to be
Signal
it aint just about stacked dados, its about getting some one to make a decent program for the british market using availble equipment which complies to our safety rules.
If your happy just watching Norm and duplicates then fine, however I think the broadcasters have a responsibility to produce a program which does reflect the above issues.
Yes you know how to create a housing with a router and straight edge, as do I and 99% of the people on this forum, But how many people gettig into woodworking through the likes of H+L wouldnt.
Hope this doesnt sound ranty, it aint meant to be
Signal
Alf
Established Member
AP,
I know what you mean; it's as boring as hell. But I'd sooner read, or skip, such a thread as this every week of the year, if it meant just one woodworking newcomer might be safer in their workshop. I know about dado heads, you know about dado heads; but Joe Bloggs fired up by Norm and his Unisaw (or Dave and his, now) doesn't have a clue. Think of Joe, eh? :wink:
Now when is someone going to fill the void and come up with the definitive "dado heads in the UK" web page so we can all just point newbies to that? You'd get a massive number of page hits...
Cheers, Alf
I know what you mean; it's as boring as hell. But I'd sooner read, or skip, such a thread as this every week of the year, if it meant just one woodworking newcomer might be safer in their workshop. I know about dado heads, you know about dado heads; but Joe Bloggs fired up by Norm and his Unisaw (or Dave and his, now) doesn't have a clue. Think of Joe, eh? :wink:
Now when is someone going to fill the void and come up with the definitive "dado heads in the UK" web page so we can all just point newbies to that?
You'd get a massive number of page hits...Cheers, Alf
CYC
Established Member
Take me for example. Watching The New yankee Workshop gave me the push to woodwork seriously. I didn't have a table saw then and started looking for the one I should get.
So there I was in the tool shop, looking at a nice table and turned to the sales man asking: "Can I get a dado head for it?". Needless to say this was the day I discovered arbors in the EU are too small for it because of regulations.
I know now how to do with a router what Norm does with his dado blade, but I didn't learn that from his show.
However, even if Dave Free used a dado blade in one episode, he still is showing how to make good use of the router and jigs. This is an enornous leap in quality of woodworking shows made in UK :wink:
And of course I have learned a lot reading everyone's comment on this forum, this is great to be part of it.
So there I was in the tool shop, looking at a nice table and turned to the sales man asking: "Can I get a dado head for it?". Needless to say this was the day I discovered arbors in the EU are too small for it because of regulations.
I know now how to do with a router what Norm does with his dado blade, but I didn't learn that from his show.
However, even if Dave Free used a dado blade in one episode, he still is showing how to make good use of the router and jigs. This is an enornous leap in quality of woodworking shows made in UK :wink:
And of course I have learned a lot reading everyone's comment on this forum, this is great to be part of it.
Newbie_Neil
Established Member
Hi AP
I'm definitely of the same mind as Signal.
I believe that H & L are missing a trick because they are so close to having a really successful UK woodworking show on their hands.
Woodworking in the UK is vastly different from the US. The point I was trying to make is that it would be really helpful if only tools that were available in the EU were used. The other point I made was one of space in the workshop. Why doesn't he use a sub 1,000 tablesaw? Why doesn't he use a combined planer thicknesser available for less than 800? Why doesn't he only make cuts when all guards are in place?
Wouldn't that make it much more meaningful?
Cheers
Neil
I'm definitely of the same mind as Signal.
I believe that H & L are missing a trick because they are so close to having a really successful UK woodworking show on their hands.
Woodworking in the UK is vastly different from the US. The point I was trying to make is that it would be really helpful if only tools that were available in the EU were used. The other point I made was one of space in the workshop. Why doesn't he use a sub 1,000 tablesaw? Why doesn't he use a combined planer thicknesser available for less than 800? Why doesn't he only make cuts when all guards are in place?
Wouldn't that make it much more meaningful?
Cheers
Neil
If you can and look up the CE directive it specifically states:
"At trade fairs, exhibitions, demonstrations, etc., Member States shall not prevent the showing of machinery or safety components which do not conform to the provisions of this Directive,....."
I think that's pretty clear. Whether they have a moral obligation to not use such devices is less clear.
A_L
just noticed - it says this as the next sentence! Hmmm
"provided that a visible sign clearly indicates that such machinery or safety components do not conform and that they are not for sale until they have been brought into conformity by the manufacturer or his authorised representative established in the Community. "
"At trade fairs, exhibitions, demonstrations, etc., Member States shall not prevent the showing of machinery or safety components which do not conform to the provisions of this Directive,....."
I think that's pretty clear. Whether they have a moral obligation to not use such devices is less clear.
A_L
just noticed - it says this as the next sentence! Hmmm
"provided that a visible sign clearly indicates that such machinery or safety components do not conform and that they are not for sale until they have been brought into conformity by the manufacturer or his authorised representative established in the Community. "
Alf
Established Member
Heh heh; you've put your finger on why I haven't done it, Sig. :lol:
If either or youse guys would do it that'd be great. A real public service to my mind.
Cheers, Alf
If either or youse guys would do it that'd be great. A real public service to my mind.
Cheers, Alf
