Got any recommendations for squares?

[Jacob]

You do talk some rubbish, even you have said your own square isn't square but you are happy to try and convince others they should follow your logical thinking.

I bought a modern "Crown" square which was not very square and also didn't balance. Lost it. I think the modern makers have lost the knack anyway.
My very old square in photo probably Marples I've cleaned up and trued the edges - it had been kicked about a bit. No problem. It's a pleasure to use.
Not sure why you have an issue with this but don't worry about it!

 

[D_W]

A square is one thing I like to buy in person so I can check it is square before I pay for it

I got put on to drafting squares on another forum years ago. I keep a 60* and a 45* in a drawer and have even taken one along to the hardware store to check a square I was going to buy. I was not sure they would let me draw pencil lines on some of their plywood.
Regards
John

I was thinking along the same lines...take something to check inexpensive squares in person.

I have a 15 inch or 18 inch empire square that i got at home depot, and it's not that close to square, but its long, so i use it to break down stock. Its off enough that if you're an accurate hand worker who saws drawer sides by hand, it'll give trouble.

Your idea of taking a plastic drafting square is one better, though, as it wouldn't look like you're leaving with one of the store's engineer squares and the plastic drafting squares is potentially larger.

Other drafting stiff such as circle templates and stainless rules is good. Stainless rules, corked or not in the drafting section of an office supply place are usually much cheaper than woodworking suppliers.

 

[D_W]

I needlessly followed my own advice last night and bought a super clean hardened head Brown and Sharpe square off of eBay for $45. Comes with a centering head also, but it's not common that I use one of those. I'll report back on how square it is. It's not just the squareness that's wonderful on that type , but also that the head does not ding easily and even when heavily used, there's little marking or distortion at the edges.

 

[pidgeonpost]

Crumbs, 63 posts on squares - 64 now! As an amateur I've found the Marples 6" one bought about 50 years ago has served me well, though I sometimes wish I'd bought a bigger one. I do have a small Moore & Wright engineer's square for very tiddly stuff. I was given a decent combination square a few years ago, just like the one Paul Sellers uses, but the Marples one is my 'go to'.

 

[Jacob]

I needlessly followed my own advice last night and bought a super clean hardened head Brown and Sharpe square off of eBay......

Why?

 

[TheTiddles]

Have you started to notice the trend? I suspect this is why there are so few people making here compared to how it used to be.

 

[Jacob]

Have you started to notice the trend? I suspect this is why there are so few people making here compared to how it used to be.

Currently: Total: 1,135 (members: 119, guests: 1,016). Fairly busy?
But yes sorry I shouldn't reply to the usual suspects I'll click the ignore button again!

 

[D_W]

Who are the ones here not making much?

(there's been an exodus over time of the folks who make things, especially the ones who make fine things on the american forums. What drives them off is the constant drumbeat to keep things at the paul sellers and rob cosman beginner level, or a couple of posters who drone on and on about this or that maker that they knew who built a million things with near no tools. The finest maker I have ever met - by miles - was a maker of all things and a toolmaker (there is nobody on this thread who could come close to matching his skill working wood, either - and neither can I nor will I ever be) - the tip to get hardened head squares (Which cost about the same as anything else that's not outright junk) was from him.

I guarantee good suggestions on used tools aren't what drives away the people making things.

Getting bogged down in sellers-esque nonsense watching endless videos and making test pieces in pine will certain keep a lot of people from going back after a while, though.

 

[recipio]

the Nobex range of folding squares are beautifully made and totally accurate. They go up to a 400 mm blade and have a metric scale on both edges - why doesn't every maker do this ! Otherwise I use aluminium drafting triangles which are so much more satisfying to use than the plastic variety.
For small enclosed areas I make 6mm ply squares on the mitre saw.

 

[D_W]

Why?

I make things. And I try to make them neatly. You should try it sometime. Not everything has to be sloppy, and not everything has to be a contest to see who can buy the least to make the sloppiest stuff.

 

[D_W]

I just checked an "Alvin" USA plastic drafting triangle (10") against the 24" starrett try square. I would guess (didn't get the feelers out, but I've done enough toolmaking to estimate) that the drafting triangle is probably 1-1.5 thousandths out of square over 10 inches.

It would certainly be accurate enough for someone to use to make their own squares or to adjust carpenter-grade tools.

 

[D_W]

well, I couldn't get a picture of the alvin, as it's see through and you can't tell that it's against the square of how large the gap.

The two aforementioned lufkin squares - I think in each case, it took me about a week in the US to wait for an auction to close at a reasonable price.
Important thing if you follow this advice is to find a relatively rust free square that shows no evidence of the rule being switched out.

The giant starrett square is a luxury to find at $25, and not something I'd buy if it were expensive (people can be pretty proud of them selling used). The blade of the square is relatively high hardness so it doesn't distort or ding easily. I think starrett would reset a square for you if you had one that needed it, but it wouldn't be $25.

When looking for combination squares, it's not necessary to find a listing that says the head is hardened, just find one with a picture of the head itself with "hardened" written on it. The listings are unreliable, anyway, as all or nearly all of the rules are hardened and sellers will type anything they can find in the heading. Lots of listings that say "hardened" with beat up unhardened heads. The corners of the hardened heads generally look nice and crisp like this one.

Having a good hardened accurate combination square for $35 isn't exactly a waste of money. If you strike a line with one of these squares and then cut to it (or set up a machine fence, etc), no part of the work you do will be wrong at the fault of the mark or setup.

I think I spent about $6000 on steel and wood in the last year, so this kind of purchase here or there seems pretty trivial.

 

[DBT85]

So many damned words.

 

[D_W]

Substance is painful for many.

If you want to have a thread about buying a $100 plunge saw and in a decade ask again if there's a good $100 plunge saw, then there's plenty of content for that type.

In fact, that seems to have taken over as people who frequent the boards now complain about the lack of makers making things and have no history of posting made items.

 

[Spectric]

Are there not two types of woodworking square, one to measure and check for square and the other to actually clamp a corner square.

Another way I have got a box square is to use two lengths of wood cut to a point at each end using 45 degree cuts from the centre and the length from point to point of the true box dimension and fit it in the box, so you end up with a cross piece and then double checking with a square.

 

[D_W]

Are there not two types of woodworking square, one to measure and check for square and the other to actually clamp a corner square.

Another way I have got a box square is to use two lengths of wood cut to a point at each end using 45 degree cuts from the centre and the length from point to point of the true box dimension and fit it in the box, so you end up with a cross piece and then double checking with a square.

Yes on the assembly. Try squares are for marking and checking.

I guess welders have giant cast bits (and machinists) to hold heavy stuff and force it to position, but it's better to make mass-heavy bits that you're going to use for alignment in building than it is to try to find purchased stuff that will do that.

Reasonable accuracy in marking and fitting (there's never too much if it's available at a moderate) makes the subsequent bit (the glue up - the much harder part) easier to get done - and with less clamping and adjustment. I think the woodworking magazine world and clampamania is probably coked up on the idea that you need to clamp the whizz out of everything when you're really hoping to work accurately enough that not a whole lot of what you're making (aside from long joints) needs a lot of force to get a fine glue joint.

 

[JobandKnock]

(large square) I doubt you'd find one commercially for sale anywhere because once seen it's obvious how to make your own from a few scraps.

Ever seen a 1200mm/4ft folding builders square, Jacob?:

I've had one of those for about 35 or 40 years. It is pretty accurate for what it is, although nowhere near as accurate as a Starrett square, obviously. It has it's uses - mainly for setting out floors, joists, etc and I have used it to set out bars, reception desks, retsil counters, walls, and the like when doing installs, but the handy thing is that it folds up flat and pops into my spirit level case. As you know, you can't always guarantee being able to source clean, straight 2 x 1 PSE on a site to make one up, but my folder is always there in the van. I've seen kitchen fitters using a baby one, about 600 x 600mm for doing set-out and checking carcass squareness, although it isn't a Stanley one

Woodworkers don't need "engineers" squares but they are worth having as long as you don't spend too much. Bahco are good. Also plenty of second hand choices available.

Think I'd agree with that - the Bahco ones are accurate enough for a lot of joinery work, but I find they tend to start binding after 3 or 4 years. Rabone ones with cast iron heads werer also good, but it's getting hard to find one at a reasonable price that isn't cream crackered

 

[Sideways]

I used the same style folding builders square for setting out the walls etc on my garden shed. Good tool. I can't really fault the value either since the accuracy is not at all bad and they are decently built. maybe a little big for a single wardrobe but for a shed or garden building it's great.

 

[cowtown_eric]

Square are totally essential to the wood butchery process---there ain't no such thing as good'nuf. gotta be square, and proven square. Import squares-even the "machinists type- can be out (DAMHIK)

Honestly, how you gonna set up a jointer or TS fence absolutely square or just wonder why lamentations or joints don't turn up flat or square? Ja you gotta prove it, it really don't take musch cogitation to figure out that the common-place rule of flipping the square to assess squareness ain't really comparing outside edges against inside edges nor asessing straighness (Maybe a previous owner used a carbide scoring tool to cut laminate eh?or just dropped that rafter square a few too many times....)

Nuf said....the knowledge to do it is out there.

Eric

 

[Jacob]

.....Honestly, how you gonna set up a jointer or TS fence absolutely square

"engineers" square for internal and external right angles, or any sort of set square where you use the outside right angle edges.
But for marking up you need a "marking-up square" where you use the outside edge of the steel blade for marking and the inside brass face of the other edge, to register against the workpiece.
They aren't the same beast, which is why people are scathing about the trad marking up square - as we see in this thread - they don't know what they are for and misuse them.
You can mark up with an engineers square of course - sliding combi being most popular, but a proper marking-up square just makes the job a little easier.
You can also check external right angles with the Marples style marking gauge inner faces, which you can't do with the "rafter" square but which is good for marking up if not too big.
Then there are T squares, which are another kettle of fish! How many sorts of square are there?