God Bless America

[revwayne]

Jacob, first thank you for your reply. One of the greatest challenges with discussion is redaction and excerpting text. The contextual setting is your sitz em leben, as it is mine. There is no justification for the murders committed anywhere in the world. Given the nature of your disdain for America and the ill-repute in which you hold us, nothing said in discussion will ever mollify or mitigate your contempt of us. I recognize that. Nowhere in your discussion did you address societal ills, protracted and violent entertainment nor the addictive conditions under which the world lives. Instead you choose objects of villification in a most uninformed way - sadly that discourse has become the gruel of the world's 'victims' and 'fallen' - I recognize that and bid many prayers to its affliction. I can't change nor will I try to change your disdain and contempt. I only ask that you give me the same right to my beliefs that you expect from me for yours.

I do think you understood what I said - I believe you're given to hyperbole and enjoy the sensational comment just to be provocative. Did you serve in the military? Have you given your life in service to humanity? Just curious. I return to Mill, 'A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other.'

Respectfully,

Reverend Wayne

 

[doctor Bob]

Did you serve in the military?

I think Jacob was a cabin boy in the battle of Trafalgar.

 

[RogerP]

........Did you serve in the military? Have you given your life in service to humanity? .......[/i].'
Respectfully,
Reverend Wayne

Very few UK members on this forum will have served in the armed forces unless they joined as a career choice. Those born on or after 1st October 1939 will not have been conscripted. UK call-ups (drafts) formally ended on 31st December 1960.

 

[Jacob]

I was in the school cadets briefly but got thrown out because of my peculiar marching style. Basically I was doing arm and leg together i.e. left arm and left leg forwards etc. Nobody told me!
We haven't fought as many wars as the yanks, since WW2 but where we have (Kenya, Korea, Malaya etc) we have been as squalid and brutal as the yanks in say Vietnam (now becoming a very civilised and progressive state thanks to being free of French, American colonialism)

As for holding America in 'ill repute' - a lot of Brits have a love/hate thing for America. We recognise the republican and revolutionary socialist origins (Thomas Paine was an englishman though somewhat cosmopolitan) and much else which is entirely admirable.
We also see slavery (albeit supplanted by simple racism since the civil war), economic inequality, KKK and lynch mobs, gun violence, international terrorism (e.g. the overthrow of Allende), ruthless business practices, reckless waste of resources in the face of climate change - the list is endless. PS and the death penalty - particularly a problem if you are poor and/or black.

Nowhere in your discussion did you address societal ills,

This thread is wholly about one particular 'societal ill' namely American gun violence. Trying to compare/conflate with other societal ills is too complicated. One societal ill at time!

PS have a happy christmas Reverend Wayne. But do try to make the world a better place - destroy(safely) all the guns and ammunition in your possession. I'm sure Jesus would have approved and you don't want to shoot somebody accidentally do you?

 

[Tom K]

Play nicely boys you should be able to get along with so much common ground.

 

[revwayne]

Thank you for your commentary Jacob. Just a few thoughts of mine:

Where did you serve in Vietnam? I was there not a colonial but as a soldier trying my best to protect a people fighting against the Bolshevik.

“We also see slavery (albeit supplanted by simple racism since the civil war), economic inequality, KKK and lynch mobs, gun violence, international terrorism (e.g. the overthrow of Allende), ruthless business practices, reckless waste of resources in the face of climate change - the list is endless. PS and the death penalty - particularly a problem if you are poor and/or black.” We have England, France, Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, and Belgium to thank for slavery in the colonies. It is your corrupt heritage that ravaged our shores with this scourge. As to the depletion of natural resources the industrial revolution began in England and spread like wildfire throughout the world. Ruthless business practices? Look around you, you decry capitalism but you don’t mind the money in tax revenue it generates. Climate change are you serious? You don’t believe that. This planet has been cooling for several million years and the climatic changes are cyclical simply refer to the weather patterns of the 1950s and you will see climate changes occurring naturally.

Racism? Do you mean the perceived racial superior of one race over another or bigotry hatred toward another because of race, religion or gender?

If you don’t like wealth don’t make money – live hand to mouth – sell your tools and give away the money to the poor who will always be with us not because it is their destiny but because there are those who make a lot of choices who create their poverty. I deal with it every day Jacob.

The societal ills and you point to guns but turn around and sign off saying, ‘It's not about the tools’. You can’t have it both ways Jacob.

As to Jesus ah yes he did say he who has no sword let him sell his cloak and buy one.

Jacob thank you for your Christmas wishes for my family and me. May God bless you always and may this Season of Christ’s birth give you everlasting joy and peace!

 

[Jacob]

Thank you for your commentary Jacob. Just a few thoughts of mine:

Where did you serve in Vietnam? I was there not a colonial but as a soldier trying my best to protect a people fighting against the Bolshevik.

I wasn't there. Neither were the Bolsheviks. Wikipedia is good if your history is a bit weak (on the Bolsheviks that is)

...
Racism? Do you mean the perceived racial superior of one race over another or bigotry hatred toward another because of race, religion or gender?

Imagined racial superiority but otherwise as you say

...
As to Jesus ah yes he did say he who has no sword let him sell his cloak and buy one.

It doesn't do to quote Jesus literally or to interpret anything he says to suit yourself. He wasn't perfect and his world was 2000 years ago.

Jacob thank you for your Christmas wishes for my family and me. May God bless you always and may this Season of Christ’s birth give you everlasting joy and peace!

Same to you Vicar - but for Christ's sake get rid of your guns!

 

[MIGNAL]

Meanwhile. . . .

. . . and today two US firefighters have been shot dead. So next it's the Teachers who need to be armed, then the Firefighters. . . then the Preachers. Just the way Jesus wanted it.
What can I say. That abundance of Guns is really keeping the peace. Crikey, how much evidence do you need.

 

[Jacob]

Ask the vicar. He seems to think it's a price worth paying.
Could be tricky in church - feeling for your hanky and everybody thinks you are about to draw a weapon and you get blasted - by the whole congregation! :shock:
Then while they have their weapons out they'd start blasting at one another, in a pre-emptive sort of way.
Then the armed choir-boys would join in from the gallery.
Vicar would get out his bazooka.
It'd make a good film.

 

[MIGNAL]

Fking PMSL. If it wasn't such a serious business. Unfortunately, it is.

 

[gregmcateer]

Certainly is. And now the 'anti gun fascists' will suggest it is not only inappropriate to arm primary school teachers, they are going to stop firefighters carrying automatic weapons !!! - I mean how the hell will they be able to stop the Perps if they are trying to reload, aim and fire whilst holding a hose in the other hand....

As a footnote. Can't really see this debalte resolving any time soon - maybe time to knock it on the head, if you'll excuse the pun.

And finally from me; May all the families of the recent victims come to terms with their cruel losses.

 

[monkeybiter]

Ask the vicar. He seems to think it's a price worth paying.
Could be tricky in church - feeling for your hanky and everybody thinks you are about to draw a weapon and you get blasted - by the whole congregation! :shock:
Then while they have their weapons out they'd start blasting at one another, in a pre-emptive sort of way.
Then the armed choir-boys would join in from the gallery.
Vicar would get out his bazooka.
It'd make a good film.

Do you seriously see this as an anti-gun argument. Sounds like a result to me :twisted:

I note that it was the Rev. that invoked Godwin's law :wink:

 

[WandrinAndy]

.... they are going to stop firefighters carrying automatic weapons !!! - I mean how the hell will they be able to stop the Perps if they are trying to reload, aim and fire whilst holding a hose in the other hand....

As a footnote. Can't really see this debalte resolving any time soon - maybe time to knock it on the head, if you'll excuse the pun. ...

A topical post Greg as the gunman had apparently "initially served 17 years in prison for beating his 92-year-old grandmother, Rose Spengler, to death with a hammer on July 18th 1980. He did not have a license to own a firearm."

May I suggest that while we keep the victims in our thoughts, we request that the anti-lobby also refrain from banning hammer ownership!

Lol

To all, Seasons Greeting and Enough for 2013....

 

[Jake]

Certainly is. And now the 'anti gun fascists' will suggest it is not only inappropriate to arm primary school teachers, they are going to stop firefighters carrying automatic weapons

The best column I read on this was Mary Dejevsky in the Indie, who did a commentary piece on how she could see the nut NRA case, and her best point was allowing people to carry guns was a great leveller in that it created "equality of arms" (as it were, my phrase, not hers) between smaller people (I think she was considering herself mostly) and more powerful people.

I think she was advocating arming 5 year olds with automatic rifles and machine pistols and dung, but I'm not sure. If some nutjob hits a creche, the age limit could probably be moved down to suit.

I am glad to live in a more civilised part of the world - which is not excepted completely from gun crime but is not ridden in the same way. Not least because not all our policemen have to be armed, and not all policemen (like any class of men) can be trusted to wield that on/off life power wisely and well.

 

[Jacob]

...we request that the anti-lobby also refrain from banning hammer ownership!......

No we will leave hammers alone I promise.
Not least because you can't kill many people with a hammer, neither fish in a barrel nor children in a school room.
And, unlike guns, hammers are extraordinarily useful for harmless tasks like knocking in nails, for which they are used many millions of time more often than they are used for killing people.

 

[kirkpoore1]

Guys:

There's a lot going on here, and it isn't a simple issue. With all due respect to revwayne, he is only addressing one aspect of the issue.

1. There are people, revwayne apparently among them, who are afraid of a tyrannical government or social anarchy.
2. There are people who, having been robbed, assaulted, or living in a dangerous environment, feel that they must have a gun.
3. There are people who use guns and shooting as a hobby.
4. There are people who use guns to fulfill their weekend fantasy life of being an Old West gunslinger or supersoldier.
5. There are people who think that guns=gonads, and theirs are gonna drag on the ground.
6. There are people who's guns give them power over others. These criminals may or may not have been formally identified. I am not talking about those who use guns in their jobs (police, security, & military).
7. There are crazy people.

Now, before I go into more detail, let me give you some background. I am an American also. I was in the military, the USAF, for over 9 years. I do not own a gun. I DO enjoy shooting--if you've never tried it, you're missing out on something that can be quite fun.

The primary problem with the gun debate in the US is that is almost inevitably done with very, very broad brush strokes. For example, if you have a gun in your house, you are three times more likely to die from a gun. But if no one in your house is mentally ill, you do not live with children, and do no live in a high crime area, your risk is much less. For another example, some people defend themselves with legal guns every year by shooting their attacker. But this number is exceeded by the number of gun suicides, and possibly by the number of spousal gun murders (not self-defenses.)

The simplistic solutions on both sides will not work everywhere. Taking away all guns is silly when, for the majority of the population, guns present only a marginal risk. Having unlimited guns is silly in high density, high crime areas where carrying a gun is frequently a precursor to using one. For the vast majority of Americans, carrying a concealed weapon provides NO additional security--you're more likely to hurt yourself than to get robbed or assaulted. For a small minority of Americans, the preceding statement is NOT true.

You might say, well how often do guns help? How many gun accidents are there each year? The answer is that we simply don't know. The gun lobby has successfully persuaded Congress to prevent any money from being spent on studies to answer these questions. We also cannot track guns back to those dealers who are providing guns to criminals, again due to restrictions promoted by the gun lobby.

Revwayne, I would suggest to you that unlimited access to guns is more likely to bring on anarchy than removing all guns is to allow tyrranny. Since we're in a foreign forum, let me quote the Second Amendment to our audience:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

I believe the Supreme Court was wrong in their recent decision to sever the obligations of being part of a well-regulated militia from the right of gun ownership. Militias are controlled by the states, not the Federal Government, and certainly could act against it should it try to establish a dictatorship.

Finally, if I like shooting, why don't I own a gun? First, I'm not one of the seven categories above. Second, I have children in the house, and all kids like to dig into things. I certainly did when I was a kid--though my dad didn't catch me playing with his guns. Third, they aren't cheap. Last Christmas, my family and my sister and her husband went out shooting with their guns. I'm sure we went through $300 in ammunition in a couple of hours. As I said, it ain't cheap. Third, my wife suffers from depression, and I don't want her to be a statistic. Finally, I like woodworking a lot more, so that's a much better hobby for me.

Kirk

 

[RogerP]

Enough, enough I can't take any more. :shock:

Happy Christmas!

 

[riclepp]

I am out of this thread, as it appears that whatever Jacob say, goes; despite the fact he is spouting his own opion and has no actual proof to back it up.

Merry Christmas one and all. Have a great day :ho2 :ho2 ccasion5:

 

[gregmcateer]

Kirk,
Thank you for putting a well-balanced and thoughtful perspective into the mix - it certainly helped me over this side of the pond.
I hope you good people in the States find some way through the impasse that is beneficial to the majority, if not everybody. Such that legitimate gun users continue safely and legitimately, whilst the innocent victims we have all heard about are not added to.

Merry Christmas to all.

Greg

 

[Silverbirch]

Kirk,
Thank you for putting a well-balanced and thoughtful perspective into the mix - it certainly helped me over this side of the pond.
I hope you good people in the States find some way through the impasse that is beneficial to the majority, if not everybody. Such that legitimate gun users continue safely and legitimately, whilst the innocent victims we have all heard about are not added to.

Merry Christmas to all.

Greg

Well said!

Ian