Gas regs and responsibility

[DrPhill]

Hi all, I wonder if any here can help to clarify my situation.

We bought a house with a gas boiler that has a 'benchmark' Installation, Commissioning and Service Record Log book'. The boiler was installed in June 2006.

We asked a local man to service the boiler, and as it turns out his name is on the installation book. The man he sent to do the service refused to service it because the installation is considered 'at risk'. The reason being that the flue comes horizontally out of the sloped roof, and has insufficient clearance for snow.

I phoned the installer who says ' That job was done by someone who worked for me, but who did it as a private job, and used my name on the installation log'. So he is obviously trying to distance himself from the cost of remedying the faulty installation.

Is this a fair excuse? Should I expect him to live up to his name on the log book?

I am tempted to phone Corgi (who 'support' the benchmark scheme), but I am a little reluctant to make waves as this is a small town.....

Any suggestions, views etc welcome.

Phill

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

If his name is on the register then I'm pretty certain that in law he is the accountable party. It doesn't matter a jot who he chose to outsource the actual work to. If his company took the money then it was they who had the liability to complete the contract. If the work was sub standard then the "responsible officer" is accountable on behalf of the company.

However, its not that simple because if the work was done way back when then it may be that sufficient time has passed for those conditions to no longer apply. That part of the law I don't know but if its anything like a warranty then my guess is too much time has passed by now?? Really not sure about that though.

 

[markturner]

Gas Safe ( not corgi anymore) cant force the guy to fix it, and its a very minor fault, not something he would get serious problems with, especially if he can prove it was by someone else. Myself, I would ask him to put it right especially as he is getting the service work - its a good chance to show his integrity and get another customer. If he refuses, you can then decide how to play it....personally I would kick up a stink, I see too many tradesmen doing bad work and not taking responsibility, it gives the industry a bad name. We always put any problems right even if its years after and the contractor is long gone ...in fact I have paid out over £8,000 this year replacing faulty roof work a rogue subby did for me.

 

[DrPhill]

Thanks both for quick replies.

[Edit out bitter rant].

So it seems that I have to rely on the integrity of the original installer, just as I would have if there were no schemes. Getting the documents and checking them would seem a pointless activity for my solicitor to have undertaken, too. sigh. (If my six-year-old car was found to have a safety fault would the manufacturer be able to shrug and say 'out of warranty' mate? I guess so.) Sorry if I sound bitter.....

How much do you reckon converting to a vertical flue kit and recertification would cost? Because until I rectify this fault no gas engineer is going to service the boiler.

 

[RogerS]

One thing I'm a little confused about is timelines. Have you recently bought this house? Reason for asking is that usually in "Questions before exchange" (or words to that effect) will be some along the lines of "when was the gas boiler last serviced". Or should have been asked. It then depends on what the answer was from the vendor. And what your own decision was based on that answer.

 

[DrPhill]

We bought the house about a year ago. It had been empty a while as the elderly couple had died and their children were initially unrealistic about its value.

During the conveyancing we did check that the boiler had been installed correctly (the document described above was our 'proof') and it had been serviced twice by the 'subcontractor' who installed it. The daughter answered 'I do not know' to all questions about such things. (As anyone would).

The boiler installation documents verify that the boiler was installed according to instruction, and nowhere in the (copious) instructions is the possibility of a short horizontal flue through a sloping roof described. So I suppose if we or our surveyor had been alert to such things we could have detected the discrepancy. I was obviously naive in assuming that the documents were of any relevance.

Phill

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

That's a good point. When you buy a house the seller has essentially committed to its condition (or your surveyor) so there may be some come back there.
edit: crossed in the ether with your last.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

There is undoubtedly a reason why this can't be done, but can't you just put a right angle and an upstand onto the existing outlet if snow is the only problem?

 

[DrPhill]

I am not really experienced enough to guess why this short-cut was taken. My guess is 'easier and cheaper' = 'get home quicker and make more profit'.

If there is interest I will post a photo tomorrow of the outside so folks can try to guess.....

I am going to have a chat with the owner of the installing company tonight and see what his story is.

Phill

 

[DrPhill]

Update:

I chatted with the named installer.

He stoutly maintains that, although the chap was working for him at the time, and he knew about the installation job, it was not an official job for the company. Allowing the installer to put the company name on documentation was only a favour......

To me this shouts duplicity.

After telling me that the regs had changed since install, finally he admitted that the regs at the time did not allow for mounting a flue horizontally through a sloping roof.

He then tried to tell me that the installation was not unsafe, although he later modified this to allow that it was 'at risk of being unsafe'.

He then admitted that the installation was 'at risk of being unsafe' at the time that the install was completed.

He then asked if I had a 'gas safety certificate', and when I said 'no' suggested that he take a couple of days to find out if there was one.

Is this something that I can do? Is a 'Benchmark' booklet not a 'Gas safety Certificate'? If not are installers required to provide one when doing an install? How do I find the regs in force at the time?

If anyone can help me on this list of questions I would be very grateful.

Phill

 

[Fatboy]

Allowing someone to use his name to 'qualify' the work is an offence, speak to Gas Safe and your local TS officer; they tend to take this sort of stuff quite seriously

 

[Dangermouse.]

If its just the flue that's not right, cant you just pop up onto the roof and put it right yourself, then get in a man to do the paper work to say its safe etc. After all its not the gas boiler and the gas supply so its not rocket science to remedy it. That's what I would do anyway. FAR to much health and safety rubbish about these days!!

 

[DrPhill]

The problem with me fixing it is that I do not know what would be a legitimate fix and what would not. I also do not know how to spot other deviations from the regulations. Nightmare scenario is that my fix is still not acceptable, or that the qualified guy finds something else to complain about.

My optimum solution is that the original installer (or the company for whom he was supposedly working) fixes the problem and issues a safety note. Then I have a reasonable amount of certainty that the installation is compliant, or that I have some redress if not.

If I cannot get that done, then it calls into question the validity of every other piece of paper where the 'competent person' could be disowned by the umbrella company. That in turn would undermine the usefulness of 'Gas Safe' certificates everywhere, would it not?

 

[Wuffles]

Not sure about in 2007 (although it was probably the same) but Gas Safe (and Corgi as it was) registration as an installer would allow a plumber to self cert for building regs when required, like part P for a sparky allows them to sign off and a Hetas person can self cert for a new flue/burner/fireplace etc. So fitting a new gas appliance should have come up through your solicitor's enquiries and the relevant certs should be registered with your local building control/council bods.

This isn't a "you didn't do it right", more of a what Fatboy above says. Speak with Gas Safe, they'd love to know about this if he doesn't intend to put it right and generate the required building regs sign off. Or, if there is the relevant sign off already, then it's even more interesting and ought to make it even more compelling for him (and his Corgi/Gas Safe registration) to put it right immediately.

Had this exact same thing done to me in the past by some low-life scum in Chipping Sodbury near Bristol. Had to get it effectively reinstalled by a Gas Safe chap.

Best of luck.

 

[bussy]

If its just the flue that's not right, cant you just pop up onto the roof and put it right yourself, then get in a man to do the paper work to say its safe etc. After all its not the gas boiler and the gas supply so its not rocket science to remedy it. That's what I would do anyway. FAR to much health and safety rubbish about these days!!

Not that simple, flu's MUST be installed as per manufacturers instructions, failure to do so could result in the products of combustion, and if the boiler is not burning the gas correctly carbon monoxide, entering the living area. Carbon monoxide is odourless, colourless and KILLS by the time you realise there`s a problem it`s probably too late.

Marty

 

[RogerS]

You might like to post over in AskTheTrades as the guys there are very helpful.

One question which I may have missed the answer to....the guy who's name is on the bottom of the piece of paper signing it off...can he not come and service it for you? And move the flue at the same time?

 

[DrPhill]

You might like to post over in AskTheTrades as the guys there are very helpful.

Excellent idea.... I have never been to that site. I will look at it tomorrow.

One question which I may have missed the answer to....the guy who's name is on the bottom of the piece of paper signing it off...can he not come and service it for you? And move the flue at the same time?

That would be my favoured solution. However the chap who signed it of (the 'competent person') was a subcontractor for a local firm. The owner of the local firm says that the installer was not on an official job, but was allowed to cite the local firm as the installing firm. So the owner says 'not my problem'.

The owner is going to phone back after checking 'to see if there is a safety certificate'. Whether this means more than buying time to work out how he can slope shoulders remains to be seen. I am hoping that he will decide that it is better to take a small financial hit in order to maintain a squeaky clean reputation (it is a small town). If not I may enquire on AskTheTrade, or even at the local Trading Standards Office.

I am irritated by two things:
- Someone was taking advantage of the elderly previous owners to do a shoddy job and get away with it.
- If a business can just say 'it was not an official job so we are not responsible' how can we trust any of these certificates and their schemes? How can I tell from looking at the certificate whether or not it is an official job?

OK, three things:
- Why should I have to shell out for someone else doing a bodge?

Phill

 

[RogerS]

.....
- If a business can just say 'it was not an official job so we are not responsible' how can we trust any of these certificates and their schemes? ...
....
Phill

Oh but they are responsible. They most definitely are. GasSafe PDQ and Trading Standards (although you may well find that the latter being understaffed won't do much). I would also enquire of your local Building Control.

 

[Dangermouse.]

If its just the flue that's not right, cant you just pop up onto the roof and put it right yourself, then get in a man to do the paper work to say its safe etc. After all its not the gas boiler and the gas supply so its not rocket science to remedy it. That's what I would do anyway. FAR to much health and safety rubbish about these days!!

Not that simple, flu's MUST be installed as per manufacturers instructions, failure to do so could result in the products of combustion, and if the boiler is not burning the gas correctly carbon monoxide, entering the living area. Carbon monoxide is odourless, colourless and KILLS by the time you realise there`s a problem it`s probably too late.

Marty

I would always say if you haven't got a CM monitor / alarm fitted if you have gas then your a fool !

 

[doorframe]

Like Roger said. The firm whose name is on the sign off is 100% responsible. The owner of the firm told you he let the installer use his firms name as a 'favour'. That would be a joke if it wasn't so serious. That is no get-out.

Give him a simple ultimatum. He puts it right immediately and issues a proper certificate or you will go to Gas Safe and Trading Standards. He will put it right.

If he doesn't, he will lose his registration. And he knows it. He's playing you for a fool.


And +1 for the carbon monoxide alarm. Absolute must, and so cheap there's no excuse.