Front vise position - opinions needed

[ayuce]

I'm planning to build a small workbench. Have no intrest on building kitchen cabinets, doors, beds etc. plus space is an issue. I want to keep length 150cm ~ 160cm, base length 100cm for stability. Front vise position critical for defining workbench lenght. Have two options

- option A : front vise at the left end of top
- option B : front vise inline with front leg

any opininon advantage/disadvantage of this two vise positions ? One note, i tend to use right side of workbench for sawing.

Another question, what size would be practical for vise throat for horizontal holding ( marked as A ) and vertical holding ( marked as B ). I'll make A/B 8cm/10 cm but can't decide if increase to 10cm/14cm. Larger is better, but it put's more strain on my homemade vises and inceases workbench size a little.

top 3 x MDF + masonite edged by 5cm x 7cm pine or smthg better. It will be leaned agains a iron door, ~ 1mt clearance on sides to wall

 

[AndyT]

I can't see why you want the frame to be so much shorter than the top. I'd make it with a little bit of overhang like the left side of your second picture but stretch the frame to the right so it is symmetrical. That would give you stability and you could still clamp down at the ends if necessary.

 

[ayuce]

I can't see why you want the frame to be so much shorter than the top. I'd make it with a little bit of overhang like the left side of your second picture but stretch the frame to the right so it is symmetrical. That would give you stability and you could still clamp down at the ends if necessary.

Good question, end vise hardware and edge thickness defines minimum overhang, around 20 cm. With symmetrical 20cm overhangs each side, base length would be 110 ~120cm ( depending on top, if its 150cm or 160cm ). The problem, i want to attach top to base with cleats screwed to upper rail, and if i decrease right overhang had to drill holes into upper rail for vise. Upper rail would be weakened a bit, it's width could be increased.

From your answer & question, what i understand front vise position in second picture have no drawbacks ?

 

[AndyT]

Hmm... these are just my thoughts, others will be along who have got end vices on their benches, (I haven't) but I don't think that your front to back rail is doing much to stiffen the top, it's mostly holding the legs in place, so I would drill it and reduce the overhang.

I just thought the end looked a bit unsupported, but there are lots of other variables including fixing the bench to the floor with steel brackets or putting weight on the shelf, which could all increase the stability.

 

[Steve Maskery]

You are right to be concerned about how the vice hardware might interfere with the understructure of the bench so make sure you have the vice you intend to use before you design its position.

Personally I'm no fan at all of the trad English joiner's bench, with a front apron. Sure it adds stiffness, and it CAN be used with great effectiveness with holdfasts and dead men and the like, but I often like to use the bench top for clamping and a front apron makes that difficult.

So without an apron we have to find other ways of making the bench stiff.

I have quite deep bottom rails on mine. The ends of them are hollowed out slightly, so that only the top and bottom inch or so make contact with the leg. Then a bolt through the leg tightens a nut cut into a recess in that rail. It is a very strong anti-racking joint.

One of the advantages of this is that it obviates the need for a long top rail at all. The bench top just sits on top of the leg assemblies (which do have a top rail running front to back) and is bolted down through slotted holes to allow for movement. No top rail to get in the way, just make sure that the leg assembly is sited in such a position that the vice can operate freely.

My bench has woodworm and I need to replace it, but I shall probably make exactly the same again.

 

[ayuce]

I agree with you Steve, both on having vice hardware first and big aprons & clamping to top. I had to home build vices, first one almost ready second one on the way. I'm also planning to use bolts for both rails and stretchers but with M/T joint.

Since the top will be softwood edged MDF can't be sure about its strenght, this is why i choose the use upper rails/stretchers. BTW few pictures of your bench structure would be usefull.

 

[condeesteso]

interesting question, the tradition appears to be if you are right-handed, face goes to left (and v.v.), but I can think of advantages to placing it at far right (I'm right-handed). I suppose tail/wagojn vice then woul;d go at left and that might be inconvenient. I'll be interested to see other's thoughts.

 

[ayuce]

I'm right handed and with the front vise on right i think i ll be happier, except hand planing and sanding.

As far as i know the logic behind traditional vise positions is while planing edge of board you apply force towards vise, so it holds better. While planning face of board, you apply force towards dog/planning stop not to tail/wagon vise. But if you never ever use hand plane, front vise on right side is better in my opinion especially for sawing, cross cutting.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Here are some (very poor) snaps:

I can't actually remember, but I'd guess that I also used either stub tenons or a 12mm dowel for location purposes, too.

I can see the appeal of having the vice on the right, but I'm much more likely to be using a handplane than a handsaw, for which a vice on the left is much more convenient.

 

[deema]

The RH stretcher is fine where it is, just drop the vice down using a spacer piece of wood and increase the height of the ice cheeks.

The front vice is on the LHS for us righties, so that as explained its for planing with the use of a dead man or some other method of propping up the stuff at the LHS. The stuff is stabiler when the cutting tool is puched towards a held end rather than been pulled away from a held end, hence the LHS is the best solution. If you try it you will find that the stuff tends to twist more when the cutting tool is pulled away from a held end.

 

[ayuce]

Brilliant idea Steve. If you used dowels, i think this is the easiest (and apperantly strong enough, you have no upper stretchers and being using this bench for years, ) joinery for stretchers. Even if you use stub tennons, squaring a single hole drilled by 20mm-25mm spade bit would be easier than cutting a mortise. Will use this joinery, thanks.

Anyone to comment on vise jaw dimensions ?

 

[Steve Maskery]

Oh yes, there is no problem with strength, the joint is always under compression and there is no force downwards at all. And the hardware is cheap, no special fixings, just ordinary M12 nuts and bolts.

I also make beds this way, though I go to a bit more trouble to make them invisible on the outside and the hole on the inside face has to be big enough to get a spanner in. They never rack either, no matter how much, erm, they get, erm, slept on. Yes that's right, slept on.