Frog adjustment problem

[stefan]

I recently bought a vintage Stanley Bailey No. 4 (Type 19 I think, I am new these tools) and after lapping sole and frog surface and putting it back together I found that the iron is skewed and I have to put the lateral adjustment lever almost completely to the right to get even shavings.

Whatever I try to align the frog, either the iron is skewed vertically or not perpendicular to the throat. From the top it looks fine:

But when I put in the iron (lateral adjustment lever in the middle) it looks like this from below:

When I look at the bottom areas where the frog rests on the sole, they seem asymmetrical. I added lines to make it more obvious.

And the side which has the smaller contact area in the picture above also seems to be fatter if I look on them from the front:

The iron is pretty square and flat. I also tried an different cutting iron from a No. 5 and the problem is the same.
Am doing something wrong or is this a defect of manufacturing? And if so, how can I fix it? Should I try to file it down? I guess I would have to correct the upper contact area, too?

Thanks for any suggestions!
Stefan

 

[okeydokey]

Check the cutting iron is fixed parallel to the cap iron as if they are skewed they wont line up when protruding through the mouth. Just an idea

 

[okeydokey]

The sharp edge of the iron is at 90 degree to the sides of the iron?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

He did say it was pretty square. It looks to me as if the frog is just appalingly machined.

 

[ED65]

It's perhaps not the ideal fix but there's usually enough space around a frog to allow you to rotate it enough to sort this sort of problem out. I did this on an Acorn I fixed up earlier in the year and as far as I can tell it didn't impact the plane's ability to take fine shavings.

 

[okeydokey]

I'm assuming the plane cuts well so does it matter if the lever is almost fully to the right? Maybe just leave it alone? Is it possible to try the frog from the no 5 in the no4 or vice versa - I have no idea if the frog size is the same. My ideas now run out!

 

[stefan]

It's perhaps not the ideal fix but there's usually enough space around a frog to allow you to rotate it enough to sort this sort of problem out. I did this on an Acorn I fixed up earlier in the year and as far as I can tell it didn't impact the plane's ability to take fine shavings.

I tried this and it fixed the problem to some extend, but the cutting iron is not parallel to the throat then. Does that have any negative effect? I read that it should be close to the edge of the throat for bending the shavings.

 

[stefan]

I'm assuming the plane cuts well so does it matter if the lever is almost fully to the right? Maybe just leave it alone? Is it possible to try the frog from the no 5 in the no4 or vice versa - I have no idea if the frog size is the same. My ideas now run out!

If there is no other way or the danger of making it worse by "fixing" it is great - then I would probably live with it. I just had the expression that these planes are held in high regard so I did not expect such a thing.
But thank you for your suggestions anyway!

 

[stefan]

It looks to me as if the frog is just appalingly machined.

Do you think it is possible to fix it (with low tech tools)?

 

[okeydokey]

Maybe put the no 4 and no 5 frogs next to each other, the general profile should be the same, if the no 4 looks very wrong then maybe file it to the correct shape but suggest you wait for comments from others first - they will have far more knowledge than me

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It looks to me as if the frog is just appallingly machined.

Do you think it is possible to fix it (with low tech tools)?

Not from the look of it. From the front it looks as if the whole thing is machined on a skew, but you won't be able to alter the the two larger flat seating areas easily or accurately if this is the case. Is the leading edge of the frog square to its sides?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I could of course be completely wrong.

 

[D_W]

Check the iron and confirm that the slot is in the middle. Sometimes it's off center and that's the culprit.

 

[ED65]

It's perhaps not the ideal fix but there's usually enough space around a frog to allow you to rotate it enough to sort this sort of problem out. I did this on an Acorn I fixed up earlier in the year and as far as I can tell it didn't impact the plane's ability to take fine shavings.

I tried this and it fixed the problem to some extend, but the cutting iron is not parallel to the throat then. Does that have any negative effect? I read that it should be close to the edge of the throat for bending the shavings.

The front of the mouth doesn't necessarily have any significant impact on shaving production and the quality of surface produced. If you rely on the cap iron to control tearout (and I think you should as it's far far more effective than mouth size) then a difference in the gap in front of the edge shouldn't be a significant factor. As I say it appears to make no difference in the Acorn I applied this fix to but I can't say it will work the same on any plane.

I hesitate to suggest it but another fix is to simply grind the iron so that the edge is no longer square to the sides. I prefer other fixes to this but if it comes to it this is a viable alternative.

 

[bugbear]

The upper frog surface is skewed in use. Either work the frog to fix this (which is tricky) or grind the blade with a compensating skew.

I bought a nice old Record #5½ and the blade was a little skewed.

I got out my hand cranked grinder and a engineers square, and ground and re-honed the blade to be perfectly square.

As you've guessed, when I fitted it to the (now cleaned up) plane, I had to use extreme lateral adjustment to get a uniform shaving. So I reground the blade back to its correct skew. :roll:

BugBear

 

[Bedrock]

Depends on how much time you want to spend trying to re-engineer. Second hand frogs from tool dealers usually cost around £3, but I appreciate that you don't have easy access. Most of my kit is in storage at the moment, pending completion of a new workshop, but I am sure I have a spare that you would be welcome to, if you can wait a couple of weeks.
There is a rude expression that " you can't polish a t----".

Mike

 

[stefan]

Depends on how much time you want to spend trying to re-engineer. Second hand frogs from tool dealers usually cost around £3, but I appreciate that you don't have easy access. Most of my kit is in storage at the moment, pending completion of a new workshop, but I am sure I have a spare that you would be welcome to, if you can wait a couple of weeks.
There is a rude expression that " you can't polish a t----".

Thank you for your kind offer. Indeed, eBay global shipping to Germany usually is about £12 which makes it a bit unattractive for ordering just a spare part. But if I do look for a replacement anyway, I might give it a try to fix it.

Although I see the point in the suggestions to leave it like it is and work around the issue by setting the lateral adjustment lever far to the right, I am reluctant to leave in such a kind of faulty state.

 

[Bod]

I recently bought a vintage Stanley Bailey No. 4 (Type 19 I think, I am new these tools) and after lapping sole and frog surface and putting it back together I found that the iron is skewed and I have to put the lateral adjustment lever almost completely to the right to get even shavings.

Whatever I try to align the frog, either the iron is skewed vertically or not perpendicular to the throat. From the top it looks fine:



But when I put in the iron (lateral adjustment lever in the middle) it looks like this from below:



When I look at the bottom areas where the frog rests on the sole, they seem asymmetrical. I added lines to make it more obvious.



And the side which has the smaller contact area in the picture above also seems to be fatter if I look on them from the front:



The iron is pretty square and flat. I also tried an different cutting iron from a No. 5 and the problem is the same.
Am doing something wrong or is this a defect of manufacturing? And if so, how can I fix it? Should I try to file it down? I guess I would have to correct the upper contact area, too?

Thanks for any suggestions!
Stefan

Remove the frog adjuster plate.
Will the frog now align with the mouth?
I've seen this adjuster plate so badly fitted as to prevent any proper frog - mouth fitting.
If this is the case, file the adjuster plate till proper fitting is achieved.

Bod

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

The depth projection is affected by the slot in the chipbreaker. If the slot is not square, the blade will be moved forward at an angle. If all else is square, then this is the likely cause. Try another chipbreaker, check the existing chipbreaker, and try attaching the existing chipbreaker at an angle.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[stefan]

Try another chipbreaker, check the existing chipbreaker, and try attaching the existing chipbreaker at an angle.

I tried a different cutting iron / chipbreaker assembly from a No. 5 plane with the same result. But I will double-check when I get home (along with the other suggestions).