French farmhouse table

[monkeybiter]

You could have another rectangular frame within the boundaries of the apron [thus unseen] below the apron/drawers adding additional support against sagging.

 

[Jacob]

There are two trad solutions to the drawer prob.
First is to make a small letter-box type of hole in an apron to hold a small drawer, which won't be heavy, and the hole won't compromise the strength of the apron.
The second is no apron at all - usually in the end of the table- the drawer is supported between two rails which may be 4"x1" or similar. You only see the 1" edges - which is why you need to crawl under tables to see how they are made!
Same design with two drawers in the longer sides. They would have a (say) 4x1" partition between them, with an edge grain insert over the cross grained visible end, the other end being tenonned into the opposite apron. In other words your complicated 2 drawer design above would be reduced to just three pieces of wood.
All runners , kickers, guides would be from off-cuts, added on to the basic structure.

Here's one of mine, 2 drawer, no apron, as described above:

 

[Togalosh]

Gasman, your work looks great from what I can see from the photo (I'm not envious..) & I hope that the concerns raised by Jacob do not come true as that would be a real shame.

Jacob, I cannot picture what you have explained - is there a book you could recommend that illustrates what you have explained? I am using Practical Design Solutions & Strategies by Fine Woodworking.

I have looked all around all the tables I come across (getting odd looks from diners in cafes & restaurants as I go) but nothing I've found is like the scale or materials I am using & only 1 made in the 'proper' way. This 1 example was the letter box in the apron style you mention but thought it'd be impossible to match up the drawer front grain (they had painted the drawer & apron).

My idea is to have something similar to Gasman but with wide dividers top & bottom - would this make it strong enough to have drawers along the long side ?. My concerns over strength have made me think that end drawers are the bettter way but I'd prefer not to. The book I refer to now only shows a small desk/table with this design not a 1600 x 960 dining table. What is you opinion please?

 

[Togalosh]

Jacob.. I've woken up a bit more now & see your photo& get what you've explained.

 

[Jacob]

..
Jacob, I cannot picture what you have explained

It's in my photo. The 2 drawers sit between the 2 4x1" rails with a 4x1" partition between them. 3 pieces of wood. What can't you see?

is there a book you could recommend that illustrates what you have explained?

Joyce p328. He shows various details for a chest of drawers which you would modify slightly for a table. Or Thos Moser perhaps. What I'm describing is an extremely common trad table design. If it's not in your Fine woodworking book then I'd bin it!

..... the letter box in the apron style you mention but thought it'd be impossible to match up the drawer front grain

Don't attempt the impossible. No need to match the grain anyway. It's just one of those thing you might do if it is possible and worth the effort.

 

[gasman]

Thanks for your advice Jacob but you are wrong I have done a considerable amount of research on tables and ways to achieve different ends. I have made probably 8 or 10 tables before and I always enjoy problem-solving in the design stage. There were lots of conflicting concerns and problems here which have led me to this solution which I personally think will come out fine
I have 4 potential solutions to the obvious potential problem of that side sagging
1. The 'innards' of the base - i.e. the drawer supports, cross-beams etc which are mostly of 36x110 cherry actually make the thing much stronger than I thought it would be and even now it does not sag when I sit on that side
2. It will be attached to the top at several points along that rail including the middle section and either side of the drawers with buttons - not with screws - which will provide considerable additional support - as after all there will be no relative longitudinal shrinkage or expansion to speak of between the top and that rail as all this wood is 12% moisture kiln dried plus the top itself is 32mm thick
3. If I am still concerned I will embed a rectangular section metal bar 6x25 below the drawers all the way along that rail which would be simple to do as the ends of the table are not yet glued on just dry-fitted
4. If I am still concerned I can put a metal strut over that rail to reduce sagging by resisting compression
Not sure you needed to be quite as rude about the design as you were but each to their own - maybe I am just being over-sensitive
Regards
Mark

 

[Jacob]

.........
Not sure you needed to be quite as rude about the design as you were but each to their own - maybe I am just being over-sensitive
Regards
Mark

Oops sorry didn't think I was being rude! "Constructively critical" perhaps? Trad design is under rated IMHO. Why attempt to re-design the wheel?
If you are having to put steel in doesn't this raise a question?

 

[Paul Chapman]

I reckon it will be OK, Mark, particularly when you get the top on and secure it with buttons. I'd be surprised if you have to resort to metal bars to strengthen it.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

.........
Not sure you needed to be quite as rude about the design as you were but each to their own - maybe I am just being over-sensitive
Regards
Mark

Oops sorry didn't think I was being rude! "Constructively critical" perhaps? Trad design is under rated IMHO. Why attempt to re-design the wheel?
If you are having to put steel in doesn't this raise a question?

The problem is MrB, as I understand it, is that Mark needs to incorporate two drawers in the side, which to all intent and purposes are 'secret', in other words, a table wot you've shown in your pic simply won't work. The grain of the drawer fronts needs to be made out of the same board as the apron for the grain to match and the drawer pulls are going to be incorperated so that they can't be seen...possibly moulded on the underside of the fronts, so the situation is a little convoluted and quite tricky to sort out. The only indication that there are two drawers in the apron will be the very narrow, vertical, shadow gaps 'twixt the drawers and the apron.
Mark, apologies if I've got anything askew and please correct me - Rob

 

[Jacob]

.... so the situation is a little convoluted and quite tricky to sort out. .....

Easy peasy.
Instead of trad inset drawer front, do "onset" fronts, either rebated, or with false front added, to cover the rails and stiles.
In other words a perfectly conventional modern detail.

 

[DTR]

Easy peasy.
Instead of trad inset drawer front, do "onset" fronts, either rebated, or with false front added, to cover the rails and stiles.
In other words a perfectly conventional modern detail.

I was thinking along the same lines, but thought I was missing something painfully obvious...

 

[Steve Maskery]

I've read this thread with interest. (!) My first thought was "I'd get some new clients, they are bonkers" but that's not very contructive.

For handle-less drawers, if modern hardware is acceptable, you could mount the drawers on metal runners and use push-to-open catches.

But at the beginning, did I understand you correctly to say that the top is gong to be 100omm wide made up of no more than 4 noards? If so each board needs to finish at 250mm, no? That's some hefty timbers: cherry at my local is rarely more than 6" wide, 8" tops.

Good luck!
S

PS Breadboard ends do not stop the wood from moving, but they do help to stop it cupping.

 

[Jacob]

There doesn't seem to be any problem in this thread which can't be solved with a common traditional or modern design detail.
Mind you this does entail finding out what these are. At some point you have to lie on the floor under a table, and look upwards.
If anybody asks what you are doing just tell them you are having a fit and if they don't pineapple off you'll bite their ankles!

 

[monkeybiter]

and if they don't pineapple off you'll bite their ankles!

:lol: :lol:

 

[gasman]

Thanks everyone
Metal runners not acceptable to client - needs to be traditional (but why no handles??!
Drawers now finished and glueing up - will need a bit of fettling to fit well
Top is going to be 960 mm wide and only 3 boards - I have one at 345, one at 325 and one at 295 - they were the only 3 that size I could find
Hidden extra long biscuit of cherry between each pair of boards but stopping an inch or so before the ends so from end on it looks like 3 square end boards
Thanks everyone
Mark

 

[Steve Maskery]

I think pics are compulsory!

S

 

[woodbloke]

I think pics are compulsory!

S

Agree with Steve here...pics are mandatory, or maybe it didn't happen? Who knows :duno: :lol: - Rob

 

[gasman]

Sorry taken so long to update
Not sure if this needs to be moved to the 'Projects' section -n can a Moderator advise / action if necessary? Thanks
Have made good progress and will get some more photos of the drawer fronts etc - but, as this is a big heavy table (the top measures 2200 x 950 x 32mm solid cherry in 3 planks, I am going to reinforce the rail where the drawers are with a steel
So the rail has x 32x32 mm full length piece along the bottom under the drawers. I bought a steel bar 25x8x1550mm and have hidden it in this piece
So I mounted the base upside down and supported like this

Then router out an 8mm groove very slowly using a Leigh 8mm router bit with router and fence - I made it 28mm deep and did it a few mm at a time. I also routed out a 2 deep x 20mm wide channel as well

Then I glued in the metal rail - but it was a tight fit anyway - don't think it is going anywhere

before covering it with a piece of 3mm x 20mm

Then I planed down the insert so the bottom surface of the rail is now flat.
Now it is very solid
I will show some more of the drawers etc soon
Thanks mark

 

[Paul Chapman]

That should do it

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

That should do it

Cheers :wink:

Paul

I agree with Paul, mounting the steel bar as you have done means that it's going to be very difficult to flex under load and should really stiffen up that front rail - Rob