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French casement meeting stiles?

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Jar944

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Would anyone be able to share a link to a section drawing (or post a image of) for the meeting stiles of a "traditional" French casement outswing window using double glazing and modern seals? Single casement or center mullion are easy enough to figure out but I'm having a harder time locating information on these.

I normally build cabinets and millwork, but windows are not something I deal with.
 

Jacob

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Jar944":3j0n3dsb said:
....... the meeting stiles of a "traditional" French casement outswing window using double glazing and modern seals? Single casement or center mullion are easy enough to figure out but I'm having a harder time locating information on these......
As far as I know there are no "traditional" French casement outswing windows; they all open inwards. Also double glazing and modern seals are incompatible with traditional designs.
Basically you are looking at making a thoroughly modern window.
 

Trevanion

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I just make a loose centre mullion and fix it to one of the sashes.

I could draw up a cross section if you really want but there really isn’t too much to it.
 

Jacob

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Trevanion":3skm2nky said:
I just make a loose centre mullion and fix it to one of the sashes.

I could draw up a cross section if you really want but there really isn’t too much to it.
Or simpler - plant a half width bead on the outer edge of one meeting rail, and another on the inner edge of the other, so they form rebates which meet. It means you can only open/close them in the right order.
Trad French windows often have a subtle meeting detail involving a hollow on one edge and a round on the other, which means you can open/shut them both together, but not separately.
 

Trevanion

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Jacob":jz15v1gz said:
Or simpler - plant a half width bead on the outer edge of one meeting rail, and another on the inner edge of the other, so they form rebates which meet. It means you can only open/close them in the right order.
Trad French windows often have a subtle meeting detail involving a hollow on one edge and a round on the other, which means you can open/shut them both together, but not separately.
That would work with flush casements but not the stormproof type. I think the added mullion/T-bar is a much nicer job regarding looks and sealability for not much more effort.

As you say though, not as “traditional” as nailing a couple battens on the sides of a flush casement like the old botchers used to do.
 

Jacob

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Trevanion":f4sq24wh said:
.....
As you say though, not as “traditional” as nailing a couple battens on the sides of a flush casement like the old botchers used to do.
French trad design was highly sophisticated. Lots of drawings in this book:
https://www.amazon.fr/MAISON-PAYS-RENE- ... 2232121836
Yes one option is to stick battens on the meeting edges, but this works very well and can be moulded if something fancier is wanted. Nothing wrong with simplicity!
 

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I am not a window maker but I do have traditional French windows. Mine that are 1960s have the hollow and round detail Jacob wrote about and the more modern one have a slightly more detailed moulding but works in the same way.both are very good and we have no draughts. Obviously ours open inward but it looks like the detail would convert to open outward.
 

Doug71

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Quick sketch of what I would call traditional. Might need to be on an angle if sashes are thick and not very wide. There are a few options of where you put draught strip depending on scenario.

rebate.jpg
 

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Jar944

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Did a bit of digging and found these inswing as described with the subtle radius. Interesting design.

20200205_121110.jpg



Maybe traditional wasn't the exactly the right word. More along the lines of doesn't look modern.

I do like the idea of the loose mullion fixed to one of the sash. That seems so obvious now.

This was where I was starting from in my thinking
cu31924004589549_0105.jpg
 

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Jacob

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When you said "traditional" french window I didn't spot the inverted commas!
Where did your drawing come from? Very unfamiliar - French Canadian or something? The graphics look pre WW2. Did WBMcKay do an American edition?
"French windows" in UK means either actual French windows as found in France, or UK style glazed patio doors usually outward opening and not remotely French in any way at all - though they did open inwards in some Edwardian houses.
 

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Jacob":3365owm3 said:
"French windows" in UK means either actual French windows as found in France, or UK style glazed patio doors usually outward opening and not remotely French in any way at all - though they did open inwards in some Edwardian houses.
It comes from those quintesential French balconies you see in the cities which had usually what were either called "French doors" or "French windows" double openers which either opened onto the balcony or mostly opened inward.

Hence why double opening doors are called French doors and double opening windows are called French windows. I thought that was fairly common knowledge?

 

Jacob

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Trevanion":1hkjonhw said:
Jacob":1hkjonhw said:
"French windows" in UK means either actual French windows as found in France, or UK style glazed patio doors usually outward opening and not remotely French in any way at all - though they did open inwards in some Edwardian houses.
It comes from those quintesential French balconies you see in the cities which had usually what were either called "French doors" or "French windows" double openers which either opened onto the balcony or mostly opened inward.

Hence why double opening doors are called French doors and double opening windows are called French windows. I thought that was fairly common knowledge?

Not a common sight nor a common knowledge in my neck of the woods. Fashionable Georgian towns maybe? I have worked in posh Georgian houses but always with sashes.
 

Trevanion

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Jacob":jm856s7i said:
Not a common sight nor a common knowledge in my neck of the woods. Fashionable Georgian towns maybe? I have worked in posh Georgian houses but always with sashes.
It might be the case that you don't see them in that neck of the woods, doesn't make it any less of a French-style piece of joinery, why are you being impertinent about how they should be made if you have no real experience of them?
 

Jacob

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Trevanion":1m20k1gp said:
Jacob":1m20k1gp said:
Not a common sight nor a common knowledge in my neck of the woods. Fashionable Georgian towns maybe? I have worked in posh Georgian houses but always with sashes.
It might be the case that you don't see them in that neck of the woods, doesn't make it any less of a French-style piece of joinery, why are you being impertinent about how they should be made if you have no real experience of them?
I'm not saying how they should be made but I am saying that what the OP was talking about was not traditional French windows. I have had experience of making them, but in France.
 

Trevanion

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Well, Jar944 is from the states where there are some heavily French-influenced areas where these sort of things are quite prevalent, it doesn't have to be in France to be classed as "French-style".
 

Doug71

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Ah, see what we are talking about now, here's my attempt at something similar last year, made of Accoya with a lovely big shiney espagnolette bolt on the inside.

Before

french door 1.jpg


After

french door 2.jpg


Definite improvement!
 

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Trevanion

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Doug71":1uro3i7u said:
Ah, see what we are talking about now, here's my attempt at something similar last year.
I've done a few "Juliet" balconies like that now, typically with glass rather than ironwork though. It's surprising how common having a door in the upstairs part of the house is and I've never really found a definitive answer for why which might suggest it was for a few reasons, the main one that gets suggested is lugging heavy and awkward goods up to the second floor like furniture or sacks of coal back in the day, another was that they didn't have internal staircases so that an extra occupant could live upstairs privately without disturbing the occupants below, the best suggestion I heard was that it was there so you could get on your horse easily first thing in the morning without having to clamber up on top of it, simply walk onto it's back and sit down in the saddle :lol:

These days the Juliet balconies make for a handy fire escape on paper.
 

Jar944

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Jacob":37a1hsod said:
When you said "traditional" french window I didn't spot the inverted commas!
Where did your drawing come from? Very unfamiliar - French Canadian or something? The graphics look pre WW2. Did WBMcKay do an American edition?
"French windows" in UK means either actual French windows as found in France, or UK style glazed patio doors usually outward opening and not remotely French in any way at all - though they did open inwards in some Edwardian houses.
In the US "french door" or "French casement" is just a generic name for a double unit with no fixed center mullion. Casement windows are not all that common in general here, and double are rare.

The drawing is from this 1922 book
cu31924004589549_0000_copy_1116x1398.jpg
 

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