Framed ledge and brace external door with domino?

[ajmoore1]

Hi,

I need to make an external door for a barn I am converting into a workshop. The door is an odd size (925 x 1950) hence why I am making it. I have done a bit of woodwork but do struggle with neat mortice and tenon joints. I have got a cube of 27mm oak so my plan is to make the stiles and rails 100m wide out of two 22mm pieces laminated together giving overall thickness of 44mm. I plan on joining the tenons and rails with external dominoes, probably 4 per joint, two side by side and stacked two high.

I know it is not the traditional way but if I use a good external glue will the dominoes be ok? Has anyone made doors with dominoes?

Cheers

 

[Racers]

Hi,

The reason that the traditional way has come about is that it works. Don't try to re-invent the wheel.
After making all the mortices for the door you will be a lot better at making them.

The Domino XL would be the tool to use, but a through wedged tenon door will be the strongest most secure door.
I made a pair or 40 1/2" wide morticed and wedged doors that only have glue on the wedges and they have held up fine.

Pete

 

[Nick Gibbs]

I'm nervous about loose joinery in external work. Get any moisture in there and both halves of the joint are compromised. We ought to do some tests.

Nick

 

[carlb40]

Not sure i would trust dominoes on a door of that size. As you are laminating, there is no reason why you can't knock up an mdf to route the mortice in both halves of the stiles before gluing up. That way you can make sure the tenons are correct aswell

 

[Oryxdesign]

If you are going to do it use epoxy, whilst your at it epoxy all the end grain.

 

[custard]

I use both a Domino and a Domino XL, provided you use Sipo Dominos and waterproof glue I wouldn't have any concerns about the strength of a domino joint in external applications, large or small.

However, what many people forget about the domino system is that it references off one, two, or three surfaces of the workpiece. In other words, it's only as good as the accuracy of the components that it's joining. And when you start stacking dominos, so that you have four in each joint, the need for extremely precisely machined rails and stiles escalates still higher. And I'm also assuming that you've read up on how to calibrate a Domino machine and have gone through the calibration process for both the centre line calibration and the pin/flip out peg off-set calibration.

A traditional mortice and tenon joint on the other hand lends itself to adjustiment and fitting, and because it doesn't actually reference from the members that it's joining it doesn't require the same accurately machined workpiece components.

If you have the ability to dimension your rails and stiles dead square with extreme accuracy and consistency, and have a well calibrated Domino machine, then you'll be well served with domino joints. But if you don't then my advice would be to stick with mortice and tenons and take advantage of the flexibility only they allow.

 

[Rob Platt]

FL&B gate has 2 mortice and tenon joints and 4 bare faced tenons as you`re laminating why dont you just half check the joints and glue and screw it all together. Or even better go out and buy some redwood make it in the traditional way and save the hassle and waste of a chunk of oak. HTH
all the best
rob

 

[Nick Gibbs]

I will direct our Country Carpenter, Gordon Fry, to this thread as he's a joiner in France and about to test the larger Domino. Call me an old Luddite, but I'm nervous about loose tenons in external work. I hope Gordon will persuade me otherwise as I love the Domino.

 

[Steve Maskery]

I'd have no doubt about using the XL, but I would be nervous of the relatively small capacity of the original.
My own, very limited, experience of outdoor joinery was using biscuits with D4 glue. I thought that PU was bomb-proof, but it lasted only a couple of winters before it fell apart. It was a patio table. I did rebuild it, but used twin splines as deep as I could cut on my tablesaw (about 2") and, IIRC, West System epoxy. Now that really is bomb-proof!
S

 

[Nick Gibbs]

I'd have no doubt about using the XL, but I would be nervous of the relatively small capacity of the original.
My own, very limited, experience of outdoor joinery was using biscuits with D4 glue. I thought that PU was bomb-proof, but it lasted only a couple of winters before it fell apart. It was a patio table. I did rebuild it, but used twin splines as deep as I could cut on my tablesaw (about 2") and, IIRC, West System epoxy. Now that really is bomb-proof!
S

Probably! I suspect it was the biscuits that failed more than anything else. One of my concerns would be that you choose durable chestnut for a gate, for instance, and then insert non-durable beech tenons. At least the Dominos are solid rather than compressed beech. Most external joinery on boats is wrapped in yacht varnish or Wests, keeping the moisture out. This demands regular maintenance and the finish won't suit all tastes, and it's expensive. I'm still to be convinced that it suits run-of-the-mill external joinery.

 

[Oryxdesign]

If I had the time to allow for curing I'd glue everything with Wests

 

[adzeman]

The reason that the traditional way has come about is that it works.

Get any moisture in there and both halves of the joint are compromised.

Says it all, good advice. The enjoyment of woodwork as a hobby is learning skills Like music you got to practice. What about that guy on the news yesterday on an island with nothing, no clothes nothing. took him 2 weeks to learn how to make fire and he was SAS!

With regard to gluing, I dont want to rubish the comments:-

If you are going to do it use epoxy, whilst your at it epoxy all the end grain.

If I had the time to allow for curing I'd glue everything with Wests

but dont.

In a fit of madness a couple of years back I did just that to one crap joint I made the whole joint exploded. As an act of penance I kept it to remind me. When this snow clears I will send a photo just to show you what happens if you epoxy an external joint.

 

[custard]

I'd have no doubt about using the XL, but I would be nervous of the relatively small capacity of the original.
My own, very limited, experience of outdoor joinery was using biscuits with D4 glue. I thought that PU was bomb-proof, but it lasted only a couple of winters before it fell apart. It was a patio table. I did rebuild it, but used twin splines as deep as I could cut on my tablesaw (about 2") and, IIRC, West System epoxy. Now that really is bomb-proof!
S

Probably! I suspect it was the biscuits that failed more than anything else. One of my concerns would be that you choose durable chestnut for a gate, for instance, and then insert non-durable beech tenons. At least the Dominos are solid rather than compressed beech. Most external joinery on boats is wrapped in yacht varnish or Wests, keeping the moisture out. This demands regular maintenance and the finish won't suit all tastes, and it's expensive. I'm still to be convinced that it suits run-of-the-mill external joinery.

That's why Festool introduced sipo dominos as an alternative to beech dominos, and as a consequence gained approval under the German building code for decking and other external joinery applications.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

Oops. Sorry, I hadn't heard about the sipo Dominos. Will get Gordon Fry to check them out when he tests the new machine on external doors.

 

[Oryxdesign]

I'd be interested to see that Mike. I wouldn't expect the glue to make up for a poorly executed joint.

 

[Andy RV]

How about laminating out of 3 pieces and producing the mortice and tenons during the lamination process?

 

[Chrispy]

You haven't got the wood, nor the tools, or ability to make mortices it seems, so why are you thinking of making a framed door? just make a tradional (for a barn) ledged and braced door, all ex 27mm timber, no fancy joints, no laminating job done.

 

[adzeman]

You haven't got the wood, nor the tools, or ability to make mortices it seems, so why are you thinking of making a framed door? just make a tradional (for a barn) ledged and braced door, all ex 27mm timber, no fancy joints, no laminating job done.

My sentiments exactly I made an F.L.B door june 2010 and when I priced it up I could have bought one from my local timber yard for exactly the same material cost. My door was a special in width and height and the bought door did not show what joints. Even if my door was stock size I would still have made it. As I posted early this morning I took a pic of the joint I stupidly glued (Gorrilla Glue) which burst apart. Did this happen because I glued it or that I only glued one joint? I dont know but have a look.

I have pics of making the door if any one is interested.

P.S. the draw dowel just sheared off inside the joint.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

My guess is that the panel has expanded and forced the joint apart. Not sure what else would have the power to snap a peg.

 

[RogerBoyle]

My guess would be that there was too much glue used and insufficent clamping to stop the wood expanding as the glue swelled
Done it my self when I first used the horrible stuff LOL