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Benchwayze

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I would admit to being a bit sarcastic about the motives of a vaccine lawyer, but on this subject (pros and cons of vaccines) there isn't really any need to insult or base things on opinion; there's so much data available that shows the risks from vaccines are minuscule, and much, much, lower than the risks posed by the viruses they aim to prevent.

In life we make choices; crossing a road poses a risk of death, but the risk is low and the benefits (of getting to where we need to be) outweigh the danger.

I don't really have a problem with adults who choose to be unvaccinated; the contentious issue is that they then pose a transmission risk for those who would like to be vaccinated but can't due to some underlying health condition or allergy. In essence you then have one person exercising their right to choose, but are implicitly imposing their choice of risk on those who do not have that choice.
I believe vaccines are to prevent or help prevent contracting the disease for which The vaccines are intended. I don't think vaccines are intended for, or are capable of preventing further transmission. If you have been vaccinated you can still pass on disease. So please don't blame me if you catch this virus and think it's because I have not been vaccinated. Nor will I be so, unless a couple of police officers hold me down whilst the doctor's do their stuff. I have self isolated since this problem started. I am 81, so on borrowed time maybe. Haven't had an attack of flu for about 13 years; nor a common cold. Which indicates what I have always believed. DON'T struggle in to work with a cold and expect kudos for bèing so brave. Stay at home and keep it to your self. I would also like to know why I don't see all these extra funeral processions, as I might expect with reported death rates. Given that I live on one of only two access roads to a huge estate. Or are the dead being collected by local refuse departments? Funerals normally do a drive-by even for hospital death, so where are all the hearses? Or is it just my area and it's unusually healthy populace?
 

alex_heney

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I believe vaccines are to prevent or help prevent contracting the disease for which The vaccines are intended. I don't think vaccines are intended for, or are capable of preventing further transmission. If you have been vaccinated you can still pass on disease. So please don't blame me if you catch this virus and think it's because I have not been vaccinated. Nor will I be so, unless a couple of police officers hold me down whilst the doctor's do their stuff. I have self isolated since this problem started. I am 81, so on borrowed time maybe. Haven't had an attack of flu for about 13 years; nor a common cold. Which indicates what I have always believed. DON'T struggle in to work with a cold and expect kudos for bèing so brave. Stay at home and keep it to your self. I would also like to know why I don't see all these extra funeral processions, as I might expect with reported death rates. Given that I live on one of only two access roads to a huge estate. Or are the dead being collected by local refuse departments? Funerals normally do a drive-by even for hospital death, so where are all the hearses? Or is it just my area and it's unusually healthy populace?
We are looking at an average couple of hundred deaths or so per day, across the whole of the UK.

While that is a large number of additional deaths, it is not many as a proportion of the population, and not enough to make a noticeable difference to the number of funerals unless you are in a particularly hard hit area. Even more so given that for much of the time, attendance at funerals has been very restricted.
 

sploo

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I believe vaccines are to prevent or help prevent contracting the disease for which The vaccines are intended. I don't think vaccines are intended for, or are capable of preventing further transmission. If you have been vaccinated you can still pass on disease. So please don't blame me if you catch this virus and think it's because I have not been vaccinated.
A vaccine will absolutely help to prevent further transmission - that's a critical component of their benefit to the population. As Phil notes - that's one of the points of herd immunity, and also why it is important for people who can be vaccinated to be vaccinated; as it protects those who (because of underlying health conditions or allergies) cannot receive a vaccine for a particular virus.

Now that said; if the flu vaccine is roughly 50% effective, it does mean that you can indeed have the vaccine, still get the flu, and therefore still pass it on. Critically though; the other 50% will have had their immune system "trained" by the vaccine; which will help to prevent them becoming infected (or at least greatly reduce the length and severity of their symptoms). That 50% will be far less contagious (either not contagious, or contagious for a shorter period of time); thus reducing the risk of transmission for everyone else.
 

Benchwayze

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Oh ok. You maybe miss my point. To listen to the scaremongering that's coming out of my television set the situation is such that I can expect someone to be wheeling a cart around the streets and shouting. 'Bring out your dead!'
Ten years in the military and almost thirty in the Police Force (when it was a proper Force) tell me when there are hidden agendas. I haven't been out and about much this year but I still have friends. My grand-daughter is on the front line wth the NHS and she is forbidden to speak about it to outsiders. Is it coincidence that Yahboo stopped allowing comments around the start of the emergency. I won't say there is no virus, but I am a bit sceptical about what is the governments' agenda. Even I can remember the 'chocolate' delivery wagons going in and out of Kynochs factory during WW2!
 

Droogs

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bloody hell benchwayze that was the great war with lloyd goeorge how old are you ?
 

sploo

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Oh ok. You maybe miss my point. To listen to the scaremongering that's coming out of my television set the situation is such that I can expect someone to be wheeling a cart around the streets and shouting. 'Bring out your dead!'
Ten years in the military and almost thirty in the Police Force (when it was a proper Force) tell me when there are hidden agendas. I haven't been out and about much this year but I still have friends. My grand-daughter is on the front line wth the NHS and she is forbidden to speak about it to outsiders. Is it coincidence that Yahboo stopped allowing comments around the start of the emergency. I won't say there is no virus, but I am a bit sceptical about what is the governments' agenda. Even I can remember the 'chocolate' delivery wagons going in and out of Kynochs factory during WW2!
Probably a lot of the "forbidden" comes from the fact the situation in NHS hospitals at the moment is pretty dire (my wife is a doctor at an NHS hospital).

Years of under funding the NHS have obviously caused issues, combined with the last few years' political developments having had a negative impact on staffing, and all the recent debacles surrounding non-functional PPE (we had to buy plastic specs from Screwfix for her to use in hospital).

Rules for staff on mask fitting, mask wearing, face shields etc seem to have changed with the direction of the wind (often being shaped by what is actually available, rather than what should be done).

Whilst people aren't dropping dead on the streets, earlier in the year many UK hospitals were seriously overloaded with Covid patients (which of course has a knock on effect on all other "routine" treatment). Given the worries about the usual rise in illnesses over the winter period (and the rate at which admissions are climbing already) it's understandable that the medics are very worried about what's to come over the next few months.

I could whinge on for pages about the government's "agenda" regarding their conduct on lockdowns and PPE procurement; but this would quickly degenerate into a political thread. Instead, I'll just say that the situation for UK hospitals isn't an act of scaremongering, and just because we're not sweeping the dead off the streets doesn't mean that we shouldn't do all we can to be careful about the spread of Covid.

Even if you really needed to visit Barnard Castle for an eye test.
 

Benchwayze

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I need an eyesight test as a matter of fact. As I also need cataracts repairing. Heaven knows when I'm going to get that done! I think I can safely say I shall never be able to drive again. Even if I could pass the eyesight test to enable me to drive around reading number plates.

John
 

RobinBHM

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Rules for staff on mask fitting, mask wearing, face shields etc seem to have changed with the direction of the wind (often being shaped by what is actually available, rather than what should be done).
My neice, a radiographer at an NHS trust hospital said she was getting emails daily with new procedures. And yes NHS PPE procedures were reverse engineered to suit availability.

The other problem is staffing -covid has meant a lot having to self isolate. At Brighton hospital, quite a lot of young staff live in shared rented accomodation with colleagues from the hospital...so if 1 gets a positive result, they all have to isolate.

Since the first wave my neice has said her hospital has remained split into covid and non covid areas -clinical and admin. The hospital has been planning for a 2nd wave since June.
 

profchris

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Almost forgot to report that my flu vaccine hasn't killed me yet. Still time, of course.

I've not been reading the latest conspiracy theories, but I do wonder how they cope with Trump joining the conspiracy by catching coronavirus :)

Me, I'm more a cockup theorist. That's what the explanation usually turns out to be.
 

marcros

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My neice, a radiographer at an NHS trust hospital said she was getting emails daily with new procedures. And yes NHS PPE procedures were reverse engineered to suit availability.
what does this mean though? I am not NHS, nor a politician, just a member of the public. As a result, I dont have the full picture or any inside information.

As I see it, the best PPE isnt available. There are reasons for this ranging from bad luck, incompetence, etc but the fact is that it isnt available.

There is no point having procedures stating that unavailable kit must be used. In many situations, this would mean that the job stops, but the NHS cannot do that. Procedures need to be in place, the procedures need to be reverse engineered to utilise what PPE is available. The only alternative is to develop procedures which use alternative PPE and scrap what they have on hand (if sufficient quantity is available to buy now).
 

RobinBHM

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what does this mean though? I am not NHS, nor a politician, just a member of the public. As a result, I dont have the full picture or any inside information.

As I see it, the best PPE isnt available. There are reasons for this ranging from bad luck, incompetence, etc but the fact is that it isnt available.

There is no point having procedures stating that unavailable kit must be used. In many situations, this would mean that the job stops, but the NHS cannot do that. Procedures need to be in place, the procedures need to be reverse engineered to utilise what PPE is available. The only alternative is to develop procedures which use alternative PPE and scrap what they have on hand (if sufficient quantity is available to buy now).
yes indeed -I wasnt making a political statement just pointing out one reason behind the changing infection control procedures.

I also believe the big changes early on were due to altering hospital layouts to separate covid to non covid areas.

my niece didnt have any shortage of PPE.


her infection control procedures for CT scans on suspected patients:

-patient to wear mask
-radiographer to put on gloves, fitted mask, apron with cuffs and elastic loop to go over thumb
-then a second pair of gloves to go over original and cover end of apron cuff

After Scan:
PPE removed and thrown away
scan room and equipment cleaned
wait 20 minutes for any potential virus to be killed
 

RobinBHM

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Me, I'm more a cockup theorist. That's what the explanation usually turns out to be
Its amazing the conspiracy theories that are claiming its some subversive government control..........as you say, that would credit govts around the world with a high degree of organisation and competence.
 

Trainee neophyte

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I like conspiracy theories - they're fun. Sometimes they are conspiracy facts, but no one notices that, because the propaganda mill grinds on.

The vaccine thing is a good example: a sudden frenzy of headlines saying vaccines will kill you, followed by more headlines saying only a deranged anti-vaxer conspiracy theorist would believe vaccines kill. For the lay person, which frenzied headline is to be believed?

Don't forget that the term "conspiracy theorist" was coined by the CIA to stop people looking too closely at the JFK assassination. Allegedly. Believing your government is a pretty naive thing to do, but disbelieving your government gets you labeled as a weirdo. What's a tin-foil--hat wearer to do?

Apart from all the usual Wuhan Flu conspiracy theories, one which I quite like is the idea that China over-reacted to such an extent because they were fully expecting a biological attack from the West. Whether this coronavirus is man made or not, the fact that China is expecting full - spectrum warfare is interesting. Back in 2019, a few weeks before the first Covid19 case, USA and UK were numbers one and two in the list of countries ready and prepared to fight off a pandemic, so might have planned to come out materially better off than their competitors. Oh, the irony. And we only have lockdowns because China had a lockdown, and China only had a lockdown because they were expecting a12 Monkeys doomsday virus.

As I said, conspiracy theories are fun.
 

sploo

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As I said, conspiracy theories are fun.
To coin an old phrase "it's all fun until someone gets hurt".

The problem is when a doctor with highly dubious ethics releases a poor study on MMR, (and that manages to make the headlines) people put 2 and 2 together and come up with 57. End result is viral BS with chancers, fraudsters, and attention seekers putting out misinformation, and scaring people that vaccines contain deadly chemicals such as dihydrogen monoxide... and all of a sudden you get a rise in cases of serious diseases that do serious damage to (or even kill) children.

Call me humourless, but I struggle to find that bit fun.
 

Trainee neophyte

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To coin an old phrase "it's all fun until someone gets hurt".

The problem is when a doctor with highly dubious ethics releases a poor study on MMR, (and that manages to make the headlines) people put 2 and 2 together and come up with 57. End result is viral BS with chancers, fraudsters, and attention seekers putting out misinformation, and scaring people that vaccines contain deadly chemicals such as dihydrogen monoxide... and all of a sudden you get a rise in cases of serious diseases that do serious damage to (or even kill) children.

Call me humourless, but I struggle to find that bit fun.
The medical profession has a bit of a history of being useless. The food pyramid springs to mind as as a good example (it would appear to be upside down, but they still happily promote it). The coronavirus chaos is going well, as we can all see, but at least the medical malpractice suits will be curtailed, along with the medical procedures.

"Science advances one funeral at a time", as attributed to Max Planck. Someone has done the research to confirm that this is actually a provable state of affairs, rather than just an aphorism. Science really does advance one funeral at a time, study suggests

We worship science as the new religion, and like most religions it is faith based, has its heirarchy, dogma, schisms, heretics and unbelievers. It is politicised, facts rewoven to suit the beliefs or needs of the heirarchy, and generally behaves much like catholicism in the middle ages.You can take the peasant out of the twelfth century, etc.

I quite understand why people don't trust the self appointed guardians of truth and beauty. Especially now that every fact has its attendant "alternative fact" to go along with it.

The new Coronavirus vaccine, should anyone manage to create it, will have been rushed through in less than two years when normally it would take at least 10. It will be vaunted as the new big thing, and the pressure to accept it will be huge. Some people will make billions, others merely millions, but the great mass of humanity may benefit, or they may not. Who knows at this point? What if it turns out to be another thalidomide cockup? Given that the scientific community doesn't seem keen to question their golden calves, it is left to the people who will pay the price of any error to do the questioning. Sometimes they may not be well equipped to do it, and sometimes they are led astray either in error or intentionally. Life is complicated. You do the best you can with what you've got. Blindly believing in leaders can be dangerous, too.
 

RobinBHM

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We worship science as the new religion, and like most religions it is faith based, has its heirarchy, dogma, schisms, heretics and unbelievers
That is untrue

Science is science, at its heart is data taken from an experiment.
If the experiment follows the correct scientific protocols the data it produces is factual

unfortunately the internet is awash with people misrepresenting science..........then you have conspiracy theories

Given that the scientific community doesn't seem keen to question their golden calves
it is painful that your posts are always littered with opinions presented as facts, you add them in like confetti to add weight to your argument. I must admit its rather clever, it makes picking apart the detail hard work. Its true that lies spread faster than the truth can catch up.

this particular comment makes an assumption that the "scientific community" is desperate to develop a vaccine and wont question it because its a "golden calf"

Governments have already paid billions to pharma companies to produce a covid vaccine whether it works or not.

the reality is the whole world wants a successful vaccine: government and people.
Please dont try and make out its scientists with a "golden calf"
 

sploo

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The medical profession has a bit of a history of being useless. The food pyramid springs to mind as as a good example (it would appear to be upside down, but they still happily promote it). The coronavirus chaos is going well, as we can all see, but at least the medical malpractice suits will be curtailed, along with the medical procedures.

"Science advances one funeral at a time", as attributed to Max Planck. Someone has done the research to confirm that this is actually a provable state of affairs, rather than just an aphorism. Science really does advance one funeral at a time, study suggests

We worship science as the new religion, and like most religions it is faith based, has its heirarchy, dogma, schisms, heretics and unbelievers. It is politicised, facts rewoven to suit the beliefs or needs of the heirarchy, and generally behaves much like catholicism in the middle ages.You can take the peasant out of the twelfth century, etc.

I quite understand why people don't trust the self appointed guardians of truth and beauty. Especially now that every fact has its attendant "alternative fact" to go along with it.

The new Coronavirus vaccine, should anyone manage to create it, will have been rushed through in less than two years when normally it would take at least 10. It will be vaunted as the new big thing, and the pressure to accept it will be huge. Some people will make billions, others merely millions, but the great mass of humanity may benefit, or they may not. Who knows at this point? What if it turns out to be another thalidomide cockup? Given that the scientific community doesn't seem keen to question their golden calves, it is left to the people who will pay the price of any error to do the questioning. Sometimes they may not be well equipped to do it, and sometimes they are led astray either in error or intentionally. Life is complicated. You do the best you can with what you've got. Blindly believing in leaders can be dangerous, too.
Other than what Robin has rightly added; I'll pass on your thoughts to my (doctor) wife about the medical profession being a bit useless. I'm sure she'll be happy to hear she's wasting her time trying to resuscitate babies.

What I find so bemusing is how those so untrusting of authority, science, and experts, are so willing to be trusting when it comes to cranks, conspiracy theorists, and the many charlatans who make a good living from herding the credulous.
 

Woody2Shoes

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Other than what Robin has rightly added; I'll pass on your thoughts to my (doctor) wife about the medical profession being a bit useless. I'm sure she'll be happy to hear she's wasting her time trying to resuscitate babies.

What I find so bemusing is how those so untrusting of authority, science, and experts, are so willing to be trusting when it comes to cranks, conspiracy theorists, and the many charlatans who make a good living from herding the credulous.
The internet has brought many benefits. It has also brought many disbenefits - two of the most glaring ones include:

a) Allowing anyone to disseminate (infinitely widely, for all practical purposes) writings which mostly would not have seen the light of day if they had had to get past the (generally pretty well educated) 'gatekeepers' of the past (publishers, editors, sub-editors [hence spelling and grammar disasters] et al).

b) Allowing anyone (regardless of their ability, through education and/or life experience, to filter/discriminate/contextualize/understand) to read the above.
 

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