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doctor Bob

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That's what an election is for. Both sides show their arguments then the people decide who they believe and what direction they want the country to go. It was on remainers to show an argument why remaining in the EU was best, which they failed to do, especially considering most MSM, politicians and big businesses were on the remain side. The argument was basically "remain and everything stays the same" which wasn't something most people wanted.
You would think so ....................
However if this was cricket, Sploo bowled middle wicket, would still be at the crease arguing with the umpire that it never hit the stumps and threatening to take the bat and ball home.
Cricket is a bad example, sploo sounds more working class, bar billiards or pidgeon fancier.
My mental image of Sploo used to be David Mitchell, from now on it will be Brian Glover.
 
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Rorschach

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I doubt there are any gentleman woodworkers (what most people on this forum are) that are working class. Just because you worked for a living doesn't make you working class.
 

sploo

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That's what an election is for. Both sides show their arguments then the people decide who they believe and what direction they want the country to go. It was on remainers to show an argument why remaining in the EU was best, which they failed to do, especially considering most MSM, politicians and big businesses were on the remain side. The argument was basically "remain and everything stays the same" which wasn't something most people wanted.
And the Leave argument was basically "leave and you'll get absolutely everything". It was a great (and successful) pitch; but it doesn't mean it wasn't a deception. Just ask the folks being kicked out of Spain (as one of a great many examples).
 

sploo

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You would think so ....................
However if this was cricket, Sploo bowled middle wicket, would still be at the crease arguing with the umpire that it never hit the stumps and threatening to take the bat and ball home.
Cricket is a bad example, sploo sounds more working class, bar billiards or pidgeon fancier.
My mental image of Sploo used to be David Mitchell, from now on it will be Brian Glover.
This whole class thing seems to have triggered you a bit Bob, so why bring it up in the first place?

Daft thing is; I don't really care (or even tend to think) of "working" class vs "middle" class - it's a really outdated and backwards concept. People are just people.
 

silentsam

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And the Leave argument was basically "leave and you'll get absolutely everything". It was a great (and successful) pitch; but it doesn't mean it wasn't a deception. Just ask the folks being kicked out of Spain (as one of a great many examples).
I'm not on either side but let's not play that game. Remain's side was pretty much "leave and we'll all be poor and dead in a week". Both sides argued their case and people decided who to believe.
 

RobinBHM

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If you are not in the south east, and not middle class, what's in it for you? Is being a member of Europe making you richer, happier, more successful
Which is totally dishonest of course.

What it should say is: "has 4 decades of UK neo liberalism causing decline in the industrial regions whilst concentrating wealth in the South East, made people in the poorest regions happier."

Its been rather handy for our politicians to blame domestic policy failures on EU membership.

Sadly Brexit means more money going to the South East and more decline in the industrial regions.
 

doctor Bob

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This whole class thing seems to have triggered you a bit Bob, so why bring it up in the first place?

Daft thing is; I don't really care (or even tend to think) of "working" class vs "middle" class - it's a really outdated and backwards concept. People are just people.
That's why you lost though, you blended the haves and have nots together. Pretend there is no class system, we are all in the same boat.
The gulf in classes is enormous, today it could be broken down into, welfare state and poor workers / middle income bracket / well to do.
All very modern and woke to say it doesn't exist, for offending people but it's there big time, if you can't see it you are in a bubble. Do you really think the guy getting £63 a week benifit feels similar (same bracket) to you.
 

Trainee neophyte

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Which is totally dishonest of course.

What it should say is: "has 4 decades of UK neo liberalism causing decline in the industrial regions whilst concentrating wealth in the South East, made people in the poorest regions happier."

Its been rather handy for our politicians to blame domestic policy failures on EU membership.

Sadly Brexit means more money going to the South East and more decline in the industrial regions.
Am I being dishonest, or is it the people doing the voting being dishonest? The point and thrust of my post is that people didn't vote Brexit because they are vindictive, racist and evil. As has already been said, the status quo has failed a significant number, so the vote to overturn the status quo won the majority.

I absolutely agree with you about the neoliberalism, but it may also have to do with North Sea Oil - an overly strong exchange rate meant manufacturing couldn't compete. Financialisation took up the slack, and now the bankers own everything "in fee simple", I think the quote goes. Good news is that the pound won't be considered a reserve currency for much longer, so after the hyperinflation shock, there should be some scope for manufacturing again. The tricky part will be keeping body and soul together during the transition.
 

silentsam

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This whole class thing seems to have triggered you a bit Bob, so why bring it up in the first place?

Daft thing is; I don't really care (or even tend to think) of "working" class vs "middle" class - it's a really outdated and backwards concept. People are just people.
Didn't the recent race report say that the biggest impact on peoples outcomes in life isn't race but class?

I didn't want to quote the report really as I know it's controversial but if they are quoting class as the biggest impact in peoples lives it is obviously somewhat significant and to pretend the divide isn't significant and getting bigger is foolish.
 

silentsam

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Sadly Brexit means more money going to the South East and more decline in the industrial regions.
The theory I've heard from some people who voted Brexit seems to be along the lines that the remain side suggest it'll make them poorer but how can you lose something when you have nothing? Someone above mentioned £63 a week in benefits... how can that get much worse really? If you have nothing you'll take a risk to try and improve things, if you are already financially secure you don't want to rock the boat.
 

RobinBHM

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Am I being dishonest, or is it the people doing the voting being dishonest? The point and thrust of my post is that people didn't vote Brexit because they are vindictive, racist and evil. As has already been said, the status quo has failed a significant number, so the vote to overturn the status quo won the majority.

I absolutely agree with you about the neoliberalism, but it may also have to do with North Sea Oil - an overly strong exchange rate meant manufacturing couldn't compete. Financialisation took up the slack, and now the bankers own everything "in fee simple", I think the quote goes. Good news is that the pound won't be considered a reserve currency for much longer, so after the hyperinflation shock, there should be some scope for manufacturing again. The tricky part will be keeping body and soul together during the transition.
my apologies I wasnt claiming you were being dishonest.

Im not sure its the people doing the voting being dishonest -they were told EU and immigrants were the faults and that brexit would solve them....which of course is untrue.

Im not sure either what you mean the vote was to overturn the status quo -this country and its media has been run by neo liberal policies for decades, brexit wont change that.

Its untrue to claim strong exchange rate has meant manufacturing cant compete -UK manufacturers buy parts from abroad, so a weaker pound increases the cost of their supplies. Since 2016 a weaker pound has not meant any benefits for UK industry as far as I can see.
 

RobinBHM

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The theory I've heard from some people who voted Brexit seems to be along the lines that the remain side suggest it'll make them poorer but how can you lose something when you have nothing? Someone above mentioned £63 a week in benefits... how can that get much worse really? If you have nothing you'll take a risk to try and improve things, if you are already financially secure you don't want to rock the boat.
That is true -my brother in law is a senior manager in the salvation army and he has been visiting the poor regions for years and has said the high leave voting in these constituencies was entirely reasonable.

You can certainly be worse off when you have nothing -look at the introduction of Universal credit and the savage PIPs assessments. Voting for more of the same can absolutely make things worse. But I agree, when you have nothing, you will vote for change, even if it isnt what it seems
 

RobinBHM

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In returning to the thread topic, what it would be interesting to know exactly what is teething troubles and what is permanent.
 

sploo

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That's why you lost though, you blended the haves and have nots together. Pretend there is no class system, we are all in the same boat.
The gulf in classes is enormous, today it could be broken down into, welfare state and poor workers / middle income bracket / well to do.
All very modern and woke to say it doesn't exist, for offending people but it's there big time, if you can't see it you are in a bubble. Do you really think the guy getting £63 a week benifit feels similar (same bracket) to you.
Dammit Bob - every time I'm ready to dismiss your posts as trolling you go and make a very good point like the above.

I wasn't meaning being "modern and woke" with a lack of interest in class - more than I don't personally try to discriminate in that area; but yes, it definitely exists in society, and I have no doubt it does colour people's world outlook.

The problem is that the guy getting £63 a week on benefits is an easy target for the manipulative. His life isn't great, and he'll readily accept an offer of change. Along come people promising great things, when in reality any changes they have in mind (e.g. working conditions, personal rights, food standards) would be negative for him, and indeed they're also likely proponents of an economic view that - if not putting the guy there in the first place - certainly aren't in favour of doing anything to help him.

As Robin noted above, "You can certainly be worse off when you have nothing"; and I suspect in at least the medium term many of those at the bottom are sadly going to find that out.
 

silentsam

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The problem is that the guy getting £63 a week on benefits is an easy target for the manipulative. His life isn't great, and he'll readily accept an offer of change. Along come people promising great things, when in reality any changes they have in mind (e.g. working conditions, personal rights, food standards) would be negative for him, and indeed they're also likely proponents of an economic view that - if not putting the guy there in the first place - certainly aren't in favour of doing anything to help him.
"the people" are now able to directly vote for the changes they want through elections. Sure it's not a direct vote but if working conditions are negatively changed by one party the party that oppose them will be able to use that to get elected next time. The only issue with this is that Labour have turned their back on the working class and will need huge changes to bring them back on side. The tories are winning in areas that were unthinkable even 10 years ago. With time they'll either move back towards the people or be replaced by another party, UKIP/Brexit Party did show that new parties are possible and can get huge number of votes so there is nothing stopping a similar party setting up on the centre-left.
 

RobinBHM

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UKIP/Brexit Party did show that new parties are possible and can get huge number of votes
Although neither have ever had any representation to speak of in Westminster.
New parties will never succeed until FPTP ends

Labour can't win because it is effectively 2 parties: socialist and moderate left.
 

sploo

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"the people" are now able to directly vote for the changes they want through elections. Sure it's not a direct vote but if working conditions are negatively changed by one party the party that oppose them will be able to use that to get elected next time. The only issue with this is that Labour have turned their back on the working class and will need huge changes to bring them back on side. The tories are winning in areas that were unthinkable even 10 years ago. With time they'll either move back towards the people or be replaced by another party, UKIP/Brexit Party did show that new parties are possible and can get huge number of votes so there is nothing stopping a similar party setting up on the centre-left.
Whilst no fan of Labour, I'm not sure they've turned their backs on the working class - more that the Tories have recently been more successful in connecting with the things that matter to them (or rather, the things they've been told should matter to them). The problem I have with it is the dishonesty; I've no problem with a political party having policies that favour cuts to social services and increasing the gap between the rich and the poor (it's a free country and all that) - just don't have those policies and then pretend (for example) to be big supporters of the NHS.

Same issue with the Leave campaign; tell the downtrodden that you support them, when in fact their personal politics (and desired outcomes should the country leave) were specifically harmful to "the common man".

As for UKIP showing that a new party can gain votes - they managed a sum total of one MP, once; and Farage was beaten by a bloke dressed as a dolphin. They certainly did however manage to gain significant influence; but mostly by drawing hardline Tory voters away, and scaring the Tories into becoming UKIP-lite.
 

doctor Bob

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sploo are you Kier Starmer? .............. you seem to be wiffle waffling, re stating your stated position and changing your opinion regularly.
 

TFrench

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Just in the interest of dragging this away from an argument, I'm trying to buy something in greece and struggling to find a shipper - I'll be one euro pallet. Value is very low (cabinet for a milling machine I have) If @Rorschach or @Trainee neophyte (or anyone else) have any bright ideas for who to contact please PM me!
 
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