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EVs again - the sensible approach

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Jacob

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The Uk government wants to stop diesel use, to much pollution so what about that new carrier, the Elizabeth that requires 4,000,000 litres (880,000 gallons) of F-76 diesel every time it's refueled. Where will they get that if our refineries are no more?
Tories are hoping to open another oil field Biggest un-developed oil field in North Sea found is off Shetland by Hurricane Energy | Scottish Energy News the Climate change issue hasn't hit them yet. Scottish Greens call UK Government an 'embarrassment' over Shetland oil project
 

Jacob

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It's not that we'll stop using it, its the public will be forced to stop using it. Trucks to trains to aeroplanes, industry et all will still use it as a source of power
Help offset all those import goods sailing up from South America or China, and still be able to state the UK is nearly carbon neutral.
China is catching up fast on climate change: " China is the world's leading country in electricity production from renewable energy sources, with over double the generation of the second-ranking country, the United States." Climate change in China - Wikipedia.
 

doctor Bob

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China is catching up fast on climate change: " China is the world's leading country in electricity production from renewable energy sources, with over double the generation of the second-ranking country, the United States." Climate change in China - Wikipedia.
I suspect it's like running a private jet but having a solar powered wrist watch.
 

D_W

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The Uk government wants to stop diesel use, to much pollution so what about that new carrier, the Elizabeth that requires 4,000,000 litres (880,000 gallons) of F-76 diesel every time it's refueled. Where will they get that if our refineries are no more?
There is no way they burn fuel as clean as motor diesel fuel in that boat, either.
 

RobinBHM

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I suspect it's like running a private jet but having a solar powered wrist watch.
1.4 billion people all cooking noodles.

Im not sure me turning my thermostat down 1deg offsets that.

it’s all rather depressing tbh
 

Jacob

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I suspect it's like running a private jet but having a solar powered wrist watch.
:LOL: The Chinese are not as daft as they seem. They also have the dubious advantage of being a totalitarian regime and being able to impose carbon policies on their population. Per capita they are still way behind USA and Europe in terms of carbon footprint.
Can't help feeling that the future (if we have one) is going to be very Chinese.
 

Terry - Somerset

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The Chinese have demonstrated in 2-3 decades how to go from third world to an economic, technological and military superpower.

They could only build that with energy - and coal was cheap, low tech and locally available.

If they feel the urge to go green (I am not being disparaging) they will do so within 10-20 years. With the departure of Trump and someone a little more rational in the White House the climate agenda may now have genuine international support become a reality.
 

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I suspect it's like running a private jet but having a solar powered wrist watch.
Pretty much - that was a shiny hook that won't catch too many folks.

China is 58% coal, 19% crude oil and 8% gas. There's some rounding in there that's off as renewables are 15%.
 

D_W

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China is catching up fast on climate change: " China is the world's leading country in electricity production from renewable energy sources, with over double the generation of the second-ranking country, the United States." Climate change in China - Wikipedia.
Yes, they burn more fossil fuels each year than they did the prior year. In 1990 35% of their energy was renewable (probably from dams). Since then, they've managed to bring that number down to 15% by increasing consumption and not supplementing the hydropower with renewables at a high enough rate.

Their use of solar and wind is probably more related to defense strategy than climate anything.
 

Trainee neophyte

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World energy use is overwhelmingly dependent on carbon fuels. Low carbon energy is an impressive 15%, but that includes hydro power and nuclear. Wind and solar come in at about 2%. Bear in mind that the energy needs of the global population are endlessly growing, and the increase in renewables just about covers the total energy increase needed each year. We are all permanently dependent on fossil fuels for all of modern life - from sufficient food to long life expectancy to leasure time to lack of slavery.


The UK is, apparently, about to run out of electricity. It already imports more than 10% from the continent, but the Europeans are also going green and so it may not be an option to import for much longer, as the foreigners will need it themselves.

"This leaves the UK with a big hole in its electricity mix in the 2020s even if the sole aim of the policy is just to replace coal. Throughout the last year, the UK has imported electricity via undersea cables in every month. In the best month – July 2020 – just two percent of our electricity was imported. In the worst month – June 2021 – 13 percent of our electricity was imported. As coal plants close and older nuclear plants are decommissioned, the demand for imported electricity is expected to rise. Although whether that electricity will be available is a moot point given that France and Belgium are also decommissioning nuclear power plants and most of continental Europe is switching to intermittent renewable energy."

The above is a quote from When green gets real
 

NormanB

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There is no way they burn fuel as clean as motor diesel fuel in that boat, either.
It’s probably a whole lot cleaner if you are talking about the amount of suspended solids/water in the fuel as they have extensive fuel management systems, including centrifuges, pre filters and coalescers. It is essentially aviation fuel standards of cleanliness - because their generation plant includes two big fat marinised aircraft gas turbine driven generators, as well as diesel generators.

if you are talking green issues then their impact on the environment then it is the same effect as a diesel powered motorboat - obviously greater than any one of them because of the volume being burned.

Obviously CVN are much greener and only the air wing is in need of electrifying.
 

Jacob

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World energy use is overwhelmingly dependent on carbon fuels. Low carbon energy is an impressive 15%, but that includes hydro power and nuclear. Wind and solar come in at about 2%. Bear in mind that the energy needs of the global population are endlessly growing, and the increase in renewables just about covers the total energy increase needed each year. We are all permanently dependent on fossil fuels for all of modern life - from sufficient food to long life expectancy to leasure time to lack of slavery.


The UK is, apparently, about to run out of electricity. It already imports more than 10% from the continent, but the Europeans are also going green and so it may not be an option to import for much longer, as the foreigners will need it themselves.

"This leaves the UK with a big hole in its electricity mix in the 2020s even if the sole aim of the policy is just to replace coal. Throughout the last year, the UK has imported electricity via undersea cables in every month. In the best month – July 2020 – just two percent of our electricity was imported. In the worst month – June 2021 – 13 percent of our electricity was imported. As coal plants close and older nuclear plants are decommissioned, the demand for imported electricity is expected to rise. Although whether that electricity will be available is a moot point given that France and Belgium are also decommissioning nuclear power plants and most of continental Europe is switching to intermittent renewable energy."

The above is a quote from When green gets real
Thanks for Home looks jolly interesting, though appears to be only concerned about the hopelessness of everything. Maybe he's right.
 

Terry - Somerset

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Building sufficient green capacity is entirely feasible if the will is there. It is rapidly becoming cost competitive with fossil fuels which make investment more plausible even without subsidies.

National Grid - since 2012 total demand has fallen from 36GW to 31GW.

Renewables have increased from 2GW to 7GW. Interconnect is currently 3GW. Fossil fuel generation has halved from 25GW to 13GW. Other sources (mainly nuclear and biomass) have remained fairly constant at 8GW.

There are some issues however:
  • to what extent can energy efficiency measures reduce demand further, as EV (the subject of this thread) are likely to increase materially
  • how to manage the variability inherent in solar and wind energy - storage, alternative generating capacity, etc.
 

Jacob

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Building sufficient green capacity is entirely feasible if the will is there. It is rapidly becoming cost competitive with fossil fuels which make investment more plausible even without subsidies.

National Grid - since 2012 total demand has fallen from 36GW to 31GW.

Renewables have increased from 2GW to 7GW. Interconnect is currently 3GW. Fossil fuel generation has halved from 25GW to 13GW. Other sources (mainly nuclear and biomass) have remained fairly constant at 8GW.

There are some issues however:
  • to what extent can energy efficiency measures reduce demand further, as EV (the subject of this thread) are likely to increase materially
  • how to manage the variability inherent in solar and wind energy - storage, alternative generating capacity, etc.
Mr Doom & Gloom (thanks TN!) says no chance Are you still buying this?

This from 2012. The figures would be better now by a small margin A reality check on renewables
 
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Spectric

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China is 58% coal, 19% crude oil and 8% gas. There's some rounding in there that's off as renewables are 15%.
What about hydro, they have a very large set of dams on the Yangtze river, producing something like 100 billion kilowatt hours, the largest power generating plant on earth and producing more than fifteen nuclear plants.
 

Trainee neophyte

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Mr Doom & Gloom (thanks TN!) says no chance
I've been reading a bit about the ban on gas central heating and it's conversion to electricity. Apparently it will be cheaper to bulldoze the average older house and start again, rather than try to retrofit sufficient insulation and install electric heat pumps. Oh, and if you do fork out the cost of a house to change your heating system, the running costs are significantly higher than gas. Who voted for that? Especially as the electricity will be mostly produced by burning...gas.

I am thinking of investing in yellow vest manufacture - looks like they will be in demand soon.
 

Spectric

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I've been reading a bit about the ban on gas central heating and it's conversion to electricity. Apparently it will be cheaper to bulldoze the average older house and start again,
That is very true, with buildings in very poor condition they are often accessed against the cost of clearance and rebuild against cost of renovation. But many of these would be renovated if the criteria was like for like, ie all character and detail must remain rather than building just a characterless set of boxes. Also when you look at the modern house you can find it very hard to find any wood, all MDF and joist/trusses manufactured from OSB sheets rather than timber trusses.
 

D_W

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What about hydro, they have a very large set of dams on the Yangtze river, producing something like 100 billion kilowatt hours, the largest power generating plant on earth and producing more than fifteen nuclear plants.
That's why they used to have such a high percent renewable, due to the dams. As their consumption has tripled or more, they haven't kept up, just mostly coal and gas. They are back to about 15 percent or so. I believe nuclear was about 20 percent in the US ( lower in china), but not sure if it is now. It's having economic difficulties against gas and wind.
 

Spectric

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That is the big issue, we are trying to solve a growing problem and really the bottom line is that we have too many people living on this planet, as population grows they produce more waste and use more resources so we are just trying to keep pace. The output from the Chinese hydro is absolutely an amazing feat of engineering yet they have outgrown it already.
 
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