European vrs Japanese Planes query

[deema]

Just been on utube watching some very interesting stuff on Japanese planes. What struck me is that for European planes we spend a lot of time and effort flattening the whole sole. The Japanese on the other hand deliberately set up their Wooden planes to have two or three points on the sole touching the stuff to be planed, just before the mouth and the foot or mouth, foot and nose which they setup flat and parallel to each other. Between these touch points they hollow out the sole slightly.

Does anyone know why they do this and why our european planes don't replicate this system?

Initially I thought...poppy cock!.....they don't know anything about planes, then after thinking about it, I could not work out the merits of both approaches so thought I'd ask the forum for your thoughts.

 

[Bod]

A metal plane only touches the wood at 3 points.
Toe, Blade, and heel. In effect it planes a radius, rather than flat.
Electric planes, are different, all the sole touches the wood, the adjustment mechanism raises the whole toe, rather than lower the blade.

Bod

 

[MIGNAL]

The Japanese method works. I set up all my European woodies using the method and I've done a few metal bodied Planes that way as well. Wooden Planes tend to move with Humidity changes. Hollowing out those areas means it's less of a problem or it's quicker to rectify. The main thing to avoid is the hollow just ahead of the blade. That's the bit that really does seem to throw the performance of the Plane.

 

[tobytools]

What about a combination of the two?

http://traditional-handplanes.com/GFTH_ ... ets-kanna/


TT

 

[deema]

Hi Bod,

I think conventional wisdom is that the sole of a European plane should be made completely flat and smooth for a truly tuned up plane. In which case I think that when the wood is flat the entire plane touches the stuff. When the wood is not flat, I think the plane sits on the two highest peaks until it becomes flat.

My conundrum is why is the west is there such a mantra about flattening the whole sole for finely tuned planes, when the best planes from japan that they use in competitions to plane off a few microns thick shavings have deliberate hollows in the sole. If the Japanese are right, the all planes would benefit from this setup with reduced drag, easier tunning. Making a steel plane with three small pads to flatten would be far easier than the whole sole of say a no 8?

Thanks Tobytools, that's a really interesting post.

 

[tobytools]

I see what your trying to say, it's the same with the chisels, japanese have a belly or hollow.
I also see what your saying about the planes, as it only the main points of contact that need to be flat I would say that their is 8 points. 2 at the toe, 2 infront mouth, 2 behind the mouth and 2 at the heel. A belly inbetween these points wouldn't make a plane worse, I'm not saying it would make it better but would mean less friction, that why we hae corrugated planes I guess.
I think it's just down to being stuck in our ways when it comes to design. If I works why change it
I'm just spit balling, a plane pro will arrive shortly and give you a real answer
TT

 

[tobytools]

Check this plane out :0

http://www.core77.com/blog/competition/ ... =pulsenews

And

http://dennisyoung-kagu.blogspot.co.uk/ ... s.html?m=1

Maby message that guy he will know.

TT

 

[JohnPW]

Apart from pulling instead of pushing, the main difference I can see is that a Japanese plane has the blade nearer to the rear/heel of the plane, whereas the Western plane has the blade nearer to the toe/front.

I've never used a Japanese plane but I've read that the toe is kept in contact with the workpiece during the whole stroke.

 

[Corneel]

If you want to know everything about the sole configuration of a Japanes plane, have a look in this series of blogs. A link to the next entry is at the bottom of each article.

http://thecarpentryway.blogspot.nl/2011/11/smile-and-wave.html

Japanese planes are wonders. No western plane is able to produce shavings down to 3 micrometer, not even close. Of course, that is a little bit obsesive, but still, it's also impressive.

 

[MIGNAL]

I don't see why not. Surely a western wooden plane is extremely similar to the Japanese version i.e. a blade firmly held in a block of wood. Perhaps it's the obsessive sharpening and obsessive Plane set up where the difference lies. Spend 3 or 4 hours on this and your Western woodie might be able to get 3 microns using an easy to plane, very well behaved piece of wood too.

 

[Corneel]

Give it a try I'd say. The famous 1 thou shaving is 25 micron. Half a thou is also still quite possible, which is 12,5 micron. Getting a sub 10 micron shaving is getting difficult to say the least and still miles away from 3 micron. Like in top sports, the closer you get, the more difficult it gets to shave off another micron from the shaving thickness.

 

[MIGNAL]

Well you would have to suggest a logical reason why the Japanese Plane can manage the 3 micron and it's western counterpart cannot. The logic escapes me. I'm pretty sure they aren't achieving 3 micron in Ebony. I suspect it's a combination of a really super sharp blade, an extremely well set up Plane and a wood type/grain that lends itself to easy planing. There may also be a little in the technique of holding and using the Plane.

 

[Corneel]

Several things I can think of. The way the blade is wedged into the body, not having a seperate wedge, makes it especially stiff. Then you have the high quality of the blades with very refined steels. Then of course they know how to sharpen, just think how straight the edge needs to be to get a full width 3 micron shaving! And finally the special sole configuration is very important.

They use indeed easy kinds of wood for these kinds of competitions. Alaskan yellow ceder is often used. And you need that very expensive micrometer. My micrometer only goes down to 10 micron.

You should read that blogentry from Gert Fritsche, the German infill planemaker. At the time of writing he was able to produce a 20 micron shaving. Only 17 to go....
http://traditional-handplanes.com/GFTH_Blog/2012/06/21/infill-meets-kanna/

 

[Corneel]

BTW, there is a problem with measuring these shavings. The Mituoyo in the picture above (547-401) has a precision of 4 micrometer, according to the Mitutoyo catalogue. Now you can calibrate it to be more precise, but it illustrates the limits.

 

[Bedrock]

I have several excellent Japanese chisels and have tried Japanese saws, which although fragile, have performed well, except that I don't get on with the pole handle.
I bought a second hand Japanese plane last year, with what I am told by experts, is a very good quality blade and kanna. I was following David Savages recent series, explaining his enthuisiasm for Japanese planes, and his preparation of the blade, in British Woodworker. Sadly the articles seem to have stalled.
I have the standard work - Japanese Woodworking Tools - which is fascinating, but clearly I have a very considerable learning curve.
With the work on the plane so far, it does not match the finish I can achieve from my European planes, particularly in difficult mostly European hardwoods. I set as my standard, a finish off the plane, rather than sanding.
I am quite happy to buy into the qualities of some Japanese tools, but get somewhat lost in the transition between achieving very high standards and what I would call the mystic aura, which surrounds both the making and use of Japanese tools. The planing competitions seem to be very artificial, in that the timber used is very easy, straight grained without knots. They prove that a very fine shaving can be obtained in very specialised conditions. Faced with a very difficult piece of old elm, would you expect a properly set up Japanese plane to come anywhere near a final finish?

 

[MIGNAL]

I'm convinced the 'easy' wood has quite a bit to do with the results. Not only will it be straight grained but I strongly suspect it will have very little grain run out too.
I don't buy into the steel type either. A good steel should get you to that level of performance. The edge might go a little quicker but the first few shavings should be perfectly OK.

 

[Corneel]

Untill you've proven otherwise I won't believe you can do the same with a western plane. :lol:

You can choose whatever wood you like. 5 micron full width shavings are good enough for me to change my mind.

 

[MIGNAL]

Not going to happen. I haven't got a micrometer capable of that level of accuracy and it would have to be done under the same conditions, wood type etc. + life is a bit too short.

 

[Corneel]

Ha! Defeated!

No not really of course. It's all just a game. Maybe you need a Japanese mentality for this kind of stuff. And maybe that is the most important aspect of all.

 

[JohnPW]

Can you even measured that accurately, with that measuring tool? 3 microns/micrometres is tiny, it's less than half the width of a red blood cell! With a very thin shaving would it even be like a normal shaving? If you're using a micrmeter, it's going to be very hard to know when you have the 2 two measuring surfaces just touch the shaving. you could easily squash the shaving and get a false reading. The same goes for a dial gauge with a sprung rod, it could be compressing the shaving.

I've planed some thin shavings before, and the shaving is more like gauze rather than something solid, any thinner and it would have crumbled to dust.

I don't see why Western planes couldn't take a shaving like the ones in the competitions, if you use the same wood to be planed and spend days preparing the plane. A plane is basically a very simple tool, I don't think there's any fundamental difference between a Western and Japanese plane.