'Este' Plane Restoration - 50mm Iron

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yan89

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Evening all

Bought a plane from a car boot at the weekend for a tenner because I felt a lot of the rust etc was superficial and I would learn a bit about planes generally by having a go tidying it up.

I've got a new Quangsheng(sp?) No.5 Jack Plane, and a Bailey No. 6 off ebay as well as a couple of small apron planes so I'll not be reliant on this, but want to make a good go of tidying it up. With that in mind, does anyone have any suggestions for where to start with tutorials on plane restoration? I found this on youtube: Hand Plane Restoration.

Also, are those nicks in the iron salvagable? I've had a cursory glance at iron options and there seems to be various different degrees of iron - how am I to know which is suitable for this tool?

Thanks
 

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Ttrees

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I'd suggest that your video suggestion might potentially lead to the demise of the plane.
Best leave it alone, and tackle that after a bit more reading on the subject.
 

Sideways

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It's a £10 car boot job not a LieNielsen. Don't sweat it. Clean it up, have a go. You'll probably improve it and will learn from the exercise.
A scrap piece of thick float glass should be free or £10 cheap from your local glass merchant. Not absolutely flat but buying a granite surface plate for your first attempt is surely overkill.
It doesn't matter if you wreck it. Having a go is to be commended. Once you try, you'll begin to think about flatness, straightness, what these mean, where do they matter and how you can measure them.
Some fine silicon carbide wet and dry paper would be my choice to use on the glass. Wet it and the back tends to grip the glass. No need for spray glue.
Be gentle. Your video guy was gung ho. You don't need to make it look factory shiny all over. You take off the least metal you can to make it work and comfortable around the edges. Watch a few more videos and you'll pick up some more points of view.
 

yan89

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It's a £10 car boot job not a LieNielsen. Don't sweat it. Clean it up, have a go. You'll probably improve it and will learn from the exercise.
A scrap piece of thick float glass should be free or £10 cheap from your local glass merchant. Not absolutely flat but buying a granite surface plate for your first attempt is surely overkill.
It doesn't matter if you wreck it. Having a go is to be commended. Once you try, you'll begin to think about flatness, straightness, what these mean, where do they matter and how you can measure them.
Some fine silicon carbide wet and dry paper would be my choice to use on the glass. Wet it and the back tends to grip the glass. No need for spray glue.
Be gentle. Your video guy was gung ho. You don't need to make it look factory shiny all over. You take off the least metal you can to make it work and comfortable around the edges. Watch a few more videos and you'll pick up some more points of view.
Thanks for your helpful reply - I’ll have a look at some other videos too. I did think the granite suggestion was a bit Ott! Out of interest, would you suggest trying with the blade or just buying a new one?
 

Sideways

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Have a go at fixing it. When they are knackered like that, it takes ages to sharpen on a stone. A cheap really coarse diamond "stone" would help, so would a powered grinder but taking care not to overheat and damage the temper of the metal. Light cuts and regular dips into some water to keep cool. Once the notches are gone, you need to put the edge back on. I would use a sharpening jig as I'm not practiced enough to be able to do it freehand. Certainly not to create a new edge.

Sharpening is a whole other world of argument, but if you bought one or two diamond bench stones like the "Ultex" type, as a DIYer I don't think that would be a waste. If you've spent your months allowance on the two better planes, you can always use more wet and dry paper on that piece of glass to work up through the grits to a nice polish. Pull strokes on the sheet abrasives :)
 

Phil Pascoe

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Thanks for your helpful reply - I’ll have a look at some other videos too. I did think the granite suggestion was a bit Ott! Out of interest, would you suggest trying with the blade or just buying a new one?
Give it a go - nothing to lose. Next time you try it. though, start with something that's a little better quality in the first place. My most used plane is a "frankenplane" ............. all the parts of it are good.
 

Orraloon

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As said have a go. Its not a quality plane but the experience gained will be good and you should get a usable plane plus learned some more about what makes a plane tick. Best way to get the nicks out of the blade is just grind them strait off the edge then form a new bevel and then hone. There is plenty life left in that blade. The video you mentioned is mostly ok but I would not soak the cast iron parts in vinegar. Cast iron is porous so getting the vinegar out again is the problem. Fine for the steel parts. As to flattening stick the sandpaper on the flattest surface you have. Tablesaw is what I do it on and I use sanding belts opened out. They last better.
Be warned that tool restoration can get under the skin and before you know it you have more planes than bits of wood to use them on.
Regards
John
 

pgrbff

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I have used the cast iron top of my sawbench and planer thicknesser to stick wet and dry to for a reasonably flat surface. I have also got 10mm glass reasonably cheap. I have found that when flattening the sole two lengths of abrasive stuck end to end, or along piece cut from a roll, is much, much quicker than a shorter single piece. The back of the blade needs all the rust marks removing so you see only bright metal. The ruler trick will help you there.
 

Ttrees

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No point in destroying the plane like in the Sellers video, as the old plane has lasted this long,
and probably would make a good user to add to your arsenal if you don't make the sole like a banana removing more of the toe and heel by lapping like that.
Lapping on a flat plate isn't foolproof, and if the plane is a cheaper variant compared with a Stanley or Record, it might not have hefty castings, meat on the sole if you will, and should it not be flat
you might only get one shot at getting it flat.
Getting anything flat means respecting the perimeter.
Don't trust anyone who won't show the results with feelers, like so...


You need to read up more on this, at least on the thread I mentioned,
as what I'm saying isn't any more difficult, will build knowledge which you will use,
and doesn't need such expensive equipment, as a flat surface is nothing if you don't use it as such.
Look with your eyes at the plane sitting like Cosman demonstrates,
use some hinging exercises to make note of the high spots,
paint the sole in marker and one small rub for 1 second to see, it should collarate with your findings.

If you keep rubbing on the lap for 5 seconds, you will loose the witness marks and abrade the toe and heel excessively should it be somewhat flat in the firstplace.

You can't trust what the witness marks tell you beyond say 2 seconds, and believing beyond this will lead to a convex profile, even though there still may be a troff in the centre.
Why? ...
Those shined up areas (toe&heel) will appear as high spots, so it just might give the impression that the plane is convex, i.e touching on the toe and heel,
when infact things are actually the opposite!.



Go back and look at the plane sitting on the clean plate if this is the case or
you risk going too far, try getting a feeler or whatever, or even just looking at the plane
sitting on the clean plate, and make note of the toe/heel
This is more important/notible on a no.5 compared to a no.4 plane, and so on,
and what will happen the longer the plane is the more it will be see sawing on the lap
removing where you don't want, you need to remove those high areas without removing the low ones on the perimiter, as abrasion on a lap like shown will always favour the edges.
So make note of it just sitting on the plate, and think about how you can remove only where is needed, which is highly unlikely everywhere.

For the non believers, they can colour in the plane and count how long the ink will last on the toe and heel, about three short strokes will show this on something flattish, and will take considerably more should one want to remove from the center everywhere,.
Best do nothing to the plane if unwilling to do this simple test.

Do some more reading if you intend to be happy with the work you wish to do to this,
as who wants the plane of shame lying around,
which took hours of unsucessful lapping, and was tolerable beforehand?

Nice to have Cosman's video to highlight this, as plenty of those videos are pure dishonesty
which I say with a bit of scorn, as I have experieced gasthly results by blindly following that rethoric, and led to the demise of more than one plane.
Took thicko here some time to realise what I was doing, as I simply believed that flat made flat.
If only I knew, just to simply look at what I was doing from a different perspective rather than beliving a misleading scratch pattern, (rabbit in the headlights job)
and make note of the toe and heel before it was too late, I wouldn't have some useless cast iron lying around.

All the best
Tom
 
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Fitzroy

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Lots of advice above that I won't duplicate, but I'd encourage you to crack on and learn whilst doing. I did a Stanley no4 a few years back and it was great to get a tool working. IMHO the blade is fine, just need to sharpen back past the nicks. I have a bench grinder now but before that I clamped a belt sander to the workbench and hand held the blade to remove the bulk of the material.

Crack on a post some pics of your progress.

Schwick, pause, schwick, pause, schwick. Can't beat the sound and feel of a sharp plane.

F.
 

yan89

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It's a £10 car boot job not a LieNielsen. Don't sweat it. Clean it up, have a go. You'll probably improve it and will learn from the exercise.
A scrap piece of thick float glass should be free or £10 cheap from your local glass merchant. Not absolutely flat but buying a granite surface plate for your first attempt is surely overkill.
It doesn't matter if you wreck it. Having a go is to be commended. Once you try, you'll begin to think about flatness, straightness, what these mean, where do they matter and how you can measure them.
Some fine silicon carbide wet and dry paper would be my choice to use on the glass. Wet it and the back tends to grip the glass. No need for spray glue.
Be gentle. Your video guy was gung ho. You don't need to make it look factory shiny all over. You take off the least metal you can to make it work and comfortable around the edges. Watch a few more videos and you'll pick up some more points of view.
Good shout - I nipped down to my local glass shop and he gave me a piece of double glazing.. just got to figure out how to get one or both the panes out of the fixings! Will see how it goes once I've built my bench and post updates
 

yan89

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No point in destroying the plane like in the Sellers video, as the old plane has lasted this long,
and probably would make a good user to add to your arsenal if you don't make the sole like a banana removing more of the toe and heel by lapping like that.
Lapping on a flat plate isn't foolproof, and if the plane is a cheaper variant compared with a Stanley or Record, it might not have hefty castings, meat on the sole if you will, and should it not be flat
you might only get one shot at getting it flat.
Getting anything flat means respecting the perimeter.
Don't trust anyone who won't show the results with feelers, like so...


You need to read up more on this, at least on the thread I mentioned,
as what I'm saying isn't any more difficult, will build knowledge which you will use,
and doesn't need such expensive equipment, as a flat surface is nothing if you don't use it as such.
Look with your eyes at the plane sitting like Cosman demonstrates,
use some hinging exercises to make note of the high spots,
paint the sole in marker and one small rub for 1 second to see, it should collarate with your findings.

If you keep rubbing on the lap for 5 seconds, you will loose the witness marks and abrade the toe and heel excessively should it be somewhat flat in the firstplace.

You can't trust what the witness marks tell you beyond say 2 seconds, and believing beyond this will lead to a convex profile, even though there still may be a troff in the centre.
Why? ...
Those shined up areas (toe&heel) will appear as high spots, so it just might give the impression that the plane is convex, i.e touching on the toe and heel,
when infact things are actually the opposite!.



Go back and look at the plane sitting on the clean plate if this is the case or
you risk going too far, try getting a feeler or whatever, or even just looking at the plane
sitting on the clean plate, and make note of the toe/heel
This is more important/notible on a no.5 compared to a no.4 plane, and so on,
and what will happen the longer the plane is the more it will be see sawing on the lap
removing where you don't want, you need to remove those high areas without removing the low ones on the perimiter, as abrasion on a lap like shown will always favour the edges.
So make note of it just sitting on the plate, and think about how you can remove only where is needed, which is highly unlikely everywhere.

For the non believers, they can colour in the plane and count how long the ink will last on the toe and heel, about three short strokes will show this on something flattish, and will take considerably more should one want to remove from the center everywhere,.
Best do nothing to the plane if unwilling to do this simple test.

Do some more reading if you intend to be happy with the work you wish to do to this,
as who wants the plane of shame lying around,
which took hours of unsucessful lapping, and was tolerable beforehand?

Nice to have Cosman's video to highlight this, as plenty of those videos are pure dishonesty
which I say with a bit of scorn, as I have experieced gasthly results by blindly following that rethoric, and led to the demise of more than one plane.
Took thicko here some time to realise what I was doing, as I simply believed that flat made flat.
If only I knew, just to simply look at what I was doing from a different perspective rather than beliving a misleading scratch pattern, (rabbit in the headlights job)
and make note of the toe and heel before it was too late, I wouldn't have some useless cast iron lying around.

All the best
Tom

Such great detail here - thanks a lot!

I've got servicable planes with which to build my bench, then will tackle this once I've got the requisite time to give it proper thought and do enough research.

Thanks again
 

Ttrees

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You can't trust what the witness marks tell you beyond say 2 seconds, and believing beyond this will lead to a convex profile, even though there still may be a troff in the centre.
Why? ...
Those shined up areas (toe&heel) will appear as high spots, so it just might give the impression that the plane is convex, i.e touching on the toe and heel,
when infact things are actually the opposite!.
Apologies, I meant to say the shined up toe and heel from lapping like above,
might give the impression that the plane is concave not convex, I missed this while proof reading yesterday.


Going to quote Inspector's comment from the last thread concerning lapping here...
as it is hints at the use of the plate.
Granite and cast iron surface plates are for measurement. Not lapping tools on sandpaper! If you did that where I worked you would get roasted. Lap on something else and check with the surface plate. Bunch of barbarians and heathens. 😉

Pete

Knowing what to look for now, should I be believed (excessive toe and heel removal)
as that particular Sellers video is still being recommended as a sound method to getting the sole flat.
It would seem to me folks who think differently might not be thinking along the same lines as Inspector, which brings up the question..


I've taken a screenshot of Cosman's video for those who won't click 🙂
Screenshot-2022-7-2 Hand Plane Review - Luban vs WoodRiver.png


Begs the question...
How do you check the plane on the surface plate, if you've affixed abrasive to the lap?
(be it just stretching the abrasive taught either end, or even wet and dry affixed by suction)

Plenty of ways to sort out a solution to this, even with a narrow plate.
Just saying if one hasn't sorted it before lapping, then
they might try get away with not doing so, which defeats the objective,
should that be to get the sole actually flat, and not just clean most of the gunk off a rusty old plane.


Tom
 
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thetyreman

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'destroying' the plane? where are your books and videos t-trees, time to get to work lol also cosman isn't to be trusted, he just copies what charlesworth said and alan peters but isn't in the same league as either of them, you won't destroy a plane by filing the edges of it, the most important part is that the sole is flat, hopefully we can all agree on that.
 
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