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engineer one

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sorry to get a bit serious just before xmas, but.

earlier in the year they changed the regulations about electricity installations. now new stuff and certain connections can only be made
by a qualified electrician CIEEor EEIC, but different people have
a view on what you can or cannot do.

i see that a number of correspondents are doing or talking about
doing kitchen and bathroom work. has any one actually checked what they are and are not allowed to do. :? :?

it is apparently eu rules, and as usual the big guys get to rip off us little people, but everyone seems to have a different view on what is legit and what not. :?

not looking to be the bad guy, just think every one ought to know there
are problems, and see whether we have any possible solutions to ensure that we stay safe, and if necessary insured, so the work done does not cost us but actually keeps us employed.

where it gets silly is that some people say you cannot even connect a small
florescent tube, and i know lots of people are expanding their workshops and so may have to be careful there too.

all the best
paul :wink:
 

Adam

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Hmm, try doing a search for "Part P" in the forum search and click "search for all terms".

Adam
 

andrewm

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engineer one":2g6xge1g said:
it is apparently eu rules
Actually it has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU. You are referring to Part P of the Building Regulations and these come under the auspices of Mr Prescott and the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister.
 

Neil

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engineer one":2w6v5zpq said:
it is apparently eu rules
I'm afraid you can't blame Brussels for this one, Paul - its a UK 'initiative'

<edit> oops, crossed over with you there, Andrew

Neil
 

shockingmoment

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This link explains it quite clearly.

Part P was introduced to reduce the number of deaths / fires caused each year by poor installations. Special Installations / Locations are mentioned specifically - these include garages (ie workshops) along with kitchens / bathrooms - all high risk areas.

You can still do the work yourself BUT you need to inform Building Control before you start and it does need to be tested by a Competent Person (Registered). The tester will then inform BC.

www.partp.co.uk/consumer/consumer_diy.asp

Hope this helps!
 

andrewm

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shockingmoment":39vlut8r said:
Part P was introduced to reduce the number of deaths / fires caused each year by poor installations.
Actually that is a matter of debate. The major intention of Part P was to force electricians to become members of trade bodies and to issue certificates to report the job so that they cannot evade the tax. The main beneficiary is the exchequer.

The majority of electrical deaths in the home are caused by portable equipment, e.g. electric fires and hairdryers and these are not covered by the regulations. The consultation document (which seems to have been removed from the ODPM website) made no distinction between deaths caused by fixed and portable equipment. However doing the calculations results in figures that indicated a saving of about 6 lives each year as a result of the introduction of Part P. That is the same number of people as die on the roads every fourteen hours! And this does not take into account any additional deaths that might be caused by people using extension leads and multi-way adapters in the kitchen because it they cannot afford the additional inspection involved in fitting additional sockets.

If they were really interested in reducing deaths don't you think that the money spent in implementing Part P could be better spent on other things instead of criminalising many DIYers who do a job at least as good as the professionals because they can justify spending more time to do it and it is their lives that are at risk if they get it wrong.

Don't get me wrong. There are some bad DIY installations just as there are some bad professional installations but Part P is not going to change that.

Andrew
 

RogerS

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Sorry, shockingmoment, but it doesn't! The site gives misleading information.

For example, my understanding was that BC did NOT have to be consulted provided that the work was signed off or whatever by a competent person or whoever. But I could be wrong.

However, even if I am wrong, the site is still misleading..for example, it lists Cooker. What does that mean? If I replace my cooker I have to tell Building Control? That is what the site implies. Actually, if you replace your cooker and simply connect the cooker to the same point as the original cooker then you can do it yourself and it does not need to be tested etc.

Now of course Joe Soap could connect the earth of the cooker to the live connection and vice versa but then no-one ever said that Part P was perfect. Grrrr...don't get me started :twisted:

My advice would be to check some of the other forums such as the Screwfix one - electrical thread - for real case history.
 

Scrit

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engineer one":26pzqx2w said:
...earlier in the year they changed the regulations about electricity installations. now new stuff and certain connections can only be made...
ermm.... Actually last January, nearly a year back.

engineer one":26pzqx2w said:
I see that a number of correspondents are doing or talking about doing kitchen and bathroom work. Has any one actually checked what they are and are not allowed to do.
I've been told by a couple of local sparkies that I'm not allowed to do anything in my shop, which is utter tosh. The same guys were saying that B&Q wouldn't be allowed to sell electrical stuff to members of the public any more - in their dreams. The odd thing is that I did have one wholesaler refuse to sell to me - he lost that account, and I suspect quite a few more, and has since ceased trading (serves him right!) The guy I use to certify my electrical stuff is qualified, but the only thing he really does is come in and check what I've done is OK, signs it off then I write him a cheque (or barter a bit of joinery work). It does help that I have a reasonable working knowledge of 3-phase wiring, industrial power supply and also the domestic stuff (including zoning in bathrooms) - but all the relevant regs are published and "silly person guides" are available. This has been how I've done my own 3-phase wiring for years and to date I've had no problems. I think a lot of sparkies are out to frighten everyone and turn themselves into the next "plumber kings", but accelerating Part P training and making it more available to other trades like kitchen fitters will probably put an end to that little scam.

Now, where is that petition calling for electricians to be qualified C&G part 3 Joiners before they can lift a hammer? :lol:

Scrit
 

JFC

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They will never get their C&G they cant even nail floor boards back down ! :lol:
 

Shadowfax

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Part P only covers domestic installations. A commercial workshop with 3 phase supply will not be affected by it.
Electrical work, if it is for exterior installations or involves fittings in a bathroom or kitchen will be covered by Part P and will need to be carried out by a "competant person" who actually could be a firm and is a member of a "competant person's scheme". Building Control have been given the task of keeping track of this stuff which is not what they wanted and, in fact, is a task that is impossible to carry out very well.
You are allowed to connect appliances and you are allowed to install spurs. You are also allowed to replace parts of circuits that are damaged.
I suggest we all have workshops, therefore, that are subject to rodent infestation! Them critters can't half eat up a lot of cable! Or fire damage. That would entail some replacement! Or perhaps some of the insulation looked a bit jaded so you replaced part of a circuit. Sure, you are supposed to follow the original cable run but who the hell will ever know where that was? See what I mean? The legislation is full of holes.
Just be sensible. No-one will be any the wiser if you have altered the wiring in your workshop, wherever it is, until the day you come to sell the house. (Even then who is going to tell what was there on January 1st 2005?).
You could always disconnect any additions at that time anyway.
Part P is not that onerous unless you have brand new installation to do. In that case getting a competant person to carry out the work will obviously increase the cost. Being a qualified sparky does not mena somone is a "competant person". It is being registered with a correct body that achieves that
It is just a dubious government "improvement" but no more so than some other parts of the Building Regulations.
How many of you have moved your bathrooms and kitchens around? New drainage runs should be the subject of a BR application. Did that, did you?
Just my thoughts, anyway,

Cheers.

SF
 

Scrit

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Shadowfax":2akl0ahy said:
Part P only covers domestic installations. A commercial workshop with 3 phase supply will not be affected by it.
Hi SF
I realise that Part P refers to domestic installations, however my commercial insurance requires that all changes to wiring layout, etc. are checked and tested by a "qualified electrical contractor" (exact term from the insurance documents). Seeing as how I had to have a site survey and risk assessment when we started in here and that the insurance surveyor photographed everything in sight..... Maybe I should change insurer :lol:

As for those odd occasions when I do a kitchen, I simply apply the same logic and get a registered sparky to sign it all off for me - that way the insurance pays out if there is a problem. If I were doing it at home for myself I probably wouldn't bother - as you said, who's going to know what state it was at in January, 2005?

Scrit
 

engineer one

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thanks guys for all the replies.

now it is clearer than mud :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

as usual with out lords and masters they have used a sledgehammer
without aiming it. rather like the recent vitamin fiasco, they have responded to a big business attitude.

in america one year they banned people from sitting in the back
of pick up trucks, because 6 people a year got killed by being thrown around. so who did it affect the poor :?

seems to me that there are a couple of things here, as you have said part of it is to do with the tax man wanting to get more people into the net,
and part of it is to give more work to guys who already have too much allegedly. the building inspectors cannot really cope with their present work load, so how they are going to deal with this?? :lol: :lol:

the gist is that a careful man would run the cables and install the power points, but not connect them until his mate the lecky comes along, spends 10 minutes with his screwdriver, and meter checks the circuits, signs the forms and goes away with the odd couple hundred quid in his pocket for doing not a lot. :wink:

to me the difficulty seems to be that what everyone seems to agree is that you can extend already fitted work, without adding new bits, but you cannot connect new stuff to the box in the hall where the lecky comes in.

or at least that is what i have been told by more than three people
who basically thought it was all cr*p since the people who generally
get into trouble are those who can't afford it in the first place.

however, if we do any paid work which involves moving or changing electrics, then we have to have a tame lecky around to cover our ar*es
other wise the insurance (what) will not cover us.

anyway as for the mistake about it being EU not JP, maybe i connected it
to the decision to change from sensible wiring colours like red for danger and black for neutral to brown for danger and blue for neutral( :oops: )
they all seem to come from the same sausage machine.

so thanks again guys it has helped, but it also shows that it will be difficult to investigate.

all the best for xmas
paul :wink:
 

Scrit

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engineer one":1d0hpu0y said:
....the decision to change from sensible wiring colours like red for danger and black for neutral to brown for danger and blue for neutral( :oops: )
Thought that was for the red/green colour blind? Anyway if you think that's bad look at what they've done to 3-phase (BS7671): red - yellow - blue for phases L1 - L2 - L3, yellow/green earth and black neutral are now brown - black - grey for phases L1 - L2 - L3, yellow/green earth and BLUE neutral, except Germany where they apparently have an exemption and use grey for EARTH! Although having said that I can remember one or two older German machines (50s or 60s stuff) with RED earths. The mind boggles :shock: For anyone interested the final date for the change is supposed to be 31st March 2006.

Nowt to do with Part P, but just thought I'd show that Part P is only part of this Euro cr*p business.....

Scrit
 
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