Electrical problem with thicknesser

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marcros

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I have an Axminster ct330 thicknesser. I haven't used it for a few months but it has been stored dry.

Today when I turn it on it immediately trips the breaker. I have reset it and tried again but same thing. I have checked the power lead and there was a mark on it where there was a mark, so I cut that section off and put a new plug on (old one was moulded on). No change.

I removed the blade guard and the blades spin by hand as much as I feels that they should. Nothing jamming it.

No humming when I start it just a cough as the motor starts and half a second later nothing.

What can I check next or what should I Google to take it somewhere to be fixed?
 
I seen Mike G is having similar issues with his PT over at the woud haven 2
He has got some suggestions but is still not running again.
If you don't get the answer you wish, and are having the same trouble, I'm sure he'd appreciate a comrade in arms on sorting it out.
Seems like the centrifugal switch is gone on his old motor, and there is a complicated fix involving making a circuit board.
All the best
Tom
 
^^ Tom, this one has a brush motor, not an induction one like MikeG’s, as far as I can find out.

What type of breaker is it tripping?

Flex the power lead this way and that, and try it again. Could be shorted inside.

Check the brushes are ok, and while they’re out, have a look at the commutator (copper segments) - they should look like copper, without too much green or black crud.

Check inside the start switch and follow the wiring as far as you can - rodent damage is a possibility. If you feel brave enough to pull the motor off, maybe a good clean out is required.

There’s not much more you can do with a brush motor than that.
 
Thanks. I will try those suggestions out.

It is a noisy screaming motor so I assume that it is brushed. The lead is a bit short now anyway so it could be an idea to replace it entirely and that would rule out a short within it.

I don't know what the breaker is. It powers the outside socket and I usually use an extension lead to power the garage. On this occasion I was just using the socket without an extension. It will be normal domestic but I have used the thicknesser from it numerous times.

When I get an hour I will do a more thorough inspection of brushes, the switch, etc.
 
Do motors from these things come off easy enough, I assume it can only be a few fixings and a few wires?
 
Thanks. I will try those suggestions out.

It is a noisy screaming motor so I assume that it is brushed. The lead is a bit short now anyway so it could be an idea to replace it entirely and that would rule out a short within it.

I don't know what the breaker is. It powers the outside socket and I usually use an extension lead to power the garage. On this occasion I was just using the socket without an extension. It will be normal domestic but I have used the thicknesser from it numerous times.

When I get an hour I will do a more thorough inspection of brushes, the switch, etc.
Most power tools are supplied with pathetically short leads. I got so fed up with tripping over them, that I bought a 50m drum of 1.5mm2 flex and fitted nice long leads to all my machines. I recommend H07 RNF cable.

Take a pic of the breaker if you have time - the type may give us information about the kind of fault you have. It’s usually the first branch of the diagnostic process.
 
Do motors from these things come off easy enough, I assume it can only be a few fixings and a few wires?

I’m not sure, but I have a similar machine and it doesn’t look too complicated. Rule out the simpler things before attempting removal of the motor anyway.
 
Most power tools are supplied with pathetically short leads. I got so fed up with tripping over them, that I bought a 50m drum of 1.5mm2 flex and fitted nice long leads to all my machines. I recommend H07 RNF cable.

Take a pic of the breaker if you have time - the type may give us information about the kind of fault you have. It’s usually the first branch of the diagnostic process.
 

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The socket ran the track saw ok, and the bandsaw and lathe (at different times) through the extension.
 
OK, those are straightforward MCBs. Tripping straight away like that suggests a dead short (magnetic trip) so hopefully the fault will be obvious.

If this is the very first time you’ve used the thicknesser without an extension lead, there’s a remote possibility that the machine has a high startup surge current, which was being damped by the extension. Easy way to rule that out is to try with the extension lead as before.
 
thanks, fowl. that one is the first and easiest check that I will do. I am 80% sure I have used it without before but I wouldn't stake my like of in.
 
The solution may depend on the type of motor...is it a brush'd motor or not?....did you previously see any sparking?...

Such a motor would be highly dangerous in a woodworking environment.It is more likely to be a totally enclosed motor (commonly TEFC).You do not have RCD's...which should be rectified...unless one of those cheapskate and real nuisance installations using one RCD for all the breakers.

That the motor was 'screaming' and not a brush'd motor ...and it should not be one...maybe the bearing/s are faulty and have now rusted. Does your manually turning the durm also freely turn the motor? It is unlikely you have an a/c commutator motor ...unless your machine includes a dc speed controller, in which case it could be faulty. It's more likely you would have a wound rotor than a squirrel cage motor for better starting torque.

You have a very small breaker...6amp on your board...which could be for lights...it would be likely inadequate for your motor start up current...so...which breaker drops out? Were they RCD combos I'd be checking your extension lead connections for a start and then low voltage (250v) meggering the motor.

(Brush'd/commutator) motors can suffer jammed brushes and being stuck to a commutator. Less likely is a short to earth of wire to the brush assembly however it can happen.)

Never mechanically test the machine with the power applied even with switch 'off'...disconnect entirely.

On the look of it , and the breakers as an electrician arriving there I'd quickly check lead and voltage even though the fault shows only when the machine is turned-on... suggesting the fault is in the machine. I'd be checking a long shot first...that the extension lead has the correct polarities, same at both ends and matching the appliance plug.

I'd check your work to see that in trying to remove one fault you have not introduced another. I see you say the lead operates other appliances including a lathe so it seems the extension lead may be ok. Presumably...??.. the same extension or one like it was used from the same outlet when it was previously working.

As you have apparently no safety switches...although somewhere I saw you don't know which breaker it is...if that's the case is it your main switch, which could be a safety switch, 'dropping out' . If so the problem is likely earth leakage or a faulty capacitor start if cap star/cap start-run. If the motor is started with a centrifugal switch (did you used to hear 'click' just after it started) it could now be a be 'welded' or spring broken so the start winding is permanently engaged.) Typically you would hear a hum owing to current drawn when the motor cannot switch into 'run' winding...then breaker out...but that's not god speaking.

Check the connections at the motor...remove the junction box cover...just see every thing is tight.

You are not an electrician so don't get too involved. Don't engage in 'the blind leading the blind' repairs. Don't mess-about!

You could check the machine switch if it has one (hopefully industrial with an easily reached 'off' switch mounted in a box ). to just see if it looks ok inside ...nothing broken or loose nothing obviously shorted but go no further.

Sensibly guineafowl suggested rodent damage but if the motor is TEFC that will not happen inside the motor itself.

As I said it's unlikely if the tool is of good quality and was compus of safety in design, to be spark producing...I can't answer for the Chinese rubbish sold today to DIY suckers of course. Try your tool in a different circuit GPO if possible. What happens now?...if c/b interrupts you have isolated the problem to the machine itself.

By the way it is not 'pathetic' that leads on such appliances are short...the idea is to minimise leads lying about but in DIY situations it's unlikely to find much common sense in safety but more common to find people who mock safety, effectively beating their chests in a macho fantasy but closing down brain, as other discussions have shown. We see that regularly at the whitehouse......

You should have an outlet very close to the machine. If not, have one installed by a licensed sparkie. I'd be inclined to put a circuit board in your shed with an RCD combo 20 amps feeding your outlets. In the event of c/b operating or you being hooked up no one has to run to the house to isolate the circuit.It's also more likely you'll be comfortable with your installation.

You should not have extension leads lying around. They get damaged and some faults can electrolux you...for example 'crushing' breaking the earth wire and shorting the active to it on the machine side, not the breaker side.... It happens

Voltage drop along a long extension lead can produce a fault in motor starting but you say it enables other power tools to function probably 1/3rd horsepower on the lathe.

If the thicknesser drum is belt driven, as a final test you could disconnect from power, remove belt/s and see what happens when power connected. If still dropping circuit breaker...and try not to do it over and over as the breaker could become damaged...then you will have pretty well isolated the problem to the switch>>>lead to motor>>>motor as the problem area.

At that point I'd be 250v (not 500 or 1000v) 'meggering' the plug between active and earth and neutral and earth (in case you do have an RCD) and active and neutral firstly switched-off then switched-on (no power applied or connected ) Depending on the outcome I may then pull out the motor.

Take it to where ? you asked...well there may be a motor re-winder nearby who can check and quote on repair or its likely you can buy a new motor somewhere locally...... the Italians make many and export many and have pretty good prices....for less than repair costs. Of course it has to match specs of the original one., but should be TEFC (totally enclosed fan cooled) or if a dc motors, also enclosed... By the way the worst battery drills I have found for sparking are deWalt...I wouldn't use one in a saw-dusty area.

Motor bases are standardised now. You'd have no trouble matching your motor to a new one. You will have to match shaft size, physical size, speed (number of poles) and ensure your pully/pullies will fit properly...Voila.
 
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It is a brushed motor. It was functioning normally the last time I used it, no sparking. It is noisy compared with the hum of an induction motor, but wasn't making any abnormal noises.
 
The solution may depend on the type of motor...is it a brush'd motor or not?....did you previously see any sparking?...

Such a motor would be highly dangerous in a woodworking environment.It is more likely to be a totally enclosed motor (commonly TEFC).

I’ve mentioned this before, but again I admire the effort you put into long explanatory posts. However, they have the ring of a parallel dimension about them - brushed motors are very common in smaller woodworking tools and are not considered highly dangerous. And what are GPOs?

By the way it is not 'pathetic' that leads on such appliances are short...the idea is to minimise leads lying about

A short lead means that unless the machine is right up against the wall where the socket is, you have a power lead hanging in mid-air, waiting for you to trip over it.
 
I should have added another possibility, which attempting to run the machine from assuredly another circuit might discover.

If there is a standing load on the circuit you are using the start attempt by your machine motor might bring the circuit to exceed the current rating of the breaker. Example...a standing load of 10 amps on a 16amp circuit might exceed 16A with motor start up current as your machine is driving a drum at start up thus exceeding even its no-load staring current.

If it was an RCD combo main switch which is interrupting ( is dropping out) cumulative leakage across all the other circuits added to existing leakage in the machine motor could exceed the 30mA...notably if capacitor start. I have found RCD's from time to time functioning as low as 23mA (suspecting damage by constant re-setting.)

Guineafowl, my nemesis...sensitive detector of parallel dimensions, ethereal spirit circling over me, seancer? perhaps ...I cross my fingers and shake them at you... begone...begone, I might cry......but alas and hail blythe spirit, (though) bird thou never wert I am merely mortal and must take the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune...and move onwards....

Perhaps it is nothing so 'exotic as your parallel universe though my asbestosis might see me there sooner than I want....but merely remnant of my trade teaching, not leaving gaps that a student is bound to experience and of which unprepared.

What is 'considered' by some or even a majority is not the point. Consciousness about risk is not the virtue of all people and particularly people in denial because they don't know or don't want to know or fear reality...South African mines, the whitehouse at present, visiting Rawanda or Sudan....Brexit... CV-19 complacency or bravado or I could mention numerous others.

Timber can auto-ignite as can hay . The dust from either is hazardous when sparks or naked flames visit them or conversely. Grain silos are an example. Timber workshops are another.

Accumulation of sawdust in workshop atmosphere is vulnerability to a rapid burn simulating an explosion. Sparking from commutator motors can be the catalyst. The motor on a thicknesser is not 'small motor' variety unless smaller than 1/3rd horsepower. I doubt the motor on the thicknesser in question is so small but were it so it should still not be a commutator motor.
Design of such machines using commutator motor would be pointless and dangerous in the environment of which I spoke. The maintenance would be much more difficult in access than an electric drilling machine. I mentioned deWalt as perhaps the worst sparker...probably owing to its drive weight. You would of course all have noticed the movement away from commutator / 'brush' motors to brush-less motors using per-magnetism to drive the rotor.

Commutator motors were used quite commonly when speed control was required. One of the prime examples being the motors driving Auto-electrical test beds (Durst being a prolific manudfacturer.)

Thicknessers don't typically use that speed control feature, metal lathes might. Thicknesser motors run the machinery drum at high peripheral speed to maintain momentum.

Sensible equipment design in a workshop in which ignitable fumes or sawdust (or grain dust) are present would be totally enclosed...even when exhaust into containment is employed ..which still allows minute particles to escape.

Spark-less motors when spark from say mechanical abrasion inside the motor occurs contain that spark within the motor.

You asked a question on 'GPO......please to answer and give some other glossary:

GPO is the more technical name for a switched 'power point'...General Purpose Outlet". An un-switched outlet is not a GPO but should only be used as 'special purpose'.

RCD is a Residual Current Device or 'safety switch.

RCD combo is an abbreviation of the combination of an RCD and a circuit breaker in one housing...unlike some other units like Westinghouse which produced industrial style RCD's .They were/are individual units mechanically attached below their individual breaker.

Similarly but much smaller today one can buy individual RCD's and install them (preferably) alongside a circuit breaker of the type illustrated.

Thank you for the opportunity to more completely explain. Voila
 
I can appreciate you're trying to be helpful Jack and you obviously know more than I ever will about electrics, but over two-thirds of what you (very competently) write about electrics isn't relevant to British electrical systems.

It just makes conversations very confusing is all.

Brushed motors are highly common amongst the lower-end (Hobby-grade) woodworking machinery such as table saws, planers, and of course, pretty much all hand-held equipment.
 
Hi Trevanion...couple of responses...thanks for the reply, what I wrote will also be as in UK but maybe in a different set of descriptors. (Hamlet via Shakespeare and the Shelley extract are British ... so I can claim some local relativity...(chuckles))

Ok got you on the brush motors...which supports my contention...Commutator motors are used for dc work and convenience so as to use tools which have no inherent rotating magnetic field as they would with alternating current supplied.

My warning about sawdust ignition under adverse environmental conditions stands as said...sawdust in the workshop air can ignite. Sparking motors can ignite it. China particularly in catering to DIY people is unlikely to give a toss about that... but in any igniton risk workshop TEFC motors only should be used. I acknowledge the technical language problem you have raised. I hope the glossary helps.

RCD's (safety switches) are available as individual (non-combo) units for the types of breakers the enquirer has...however there may not be much space on the board for it....better then to buy a 'combo' which will likely be the same physical size...only proviso being the RCD section neutral has to be separate to any MEN system (neutral link connected to earth link) otherwise it will constantly unlatch. Westinghouse, now Westinghouse-Email breakers and their 'safety switch' attachments were made in England. They are bulky and use a different mounting from the everyday breaker-board "DIN-rail" mounting.

One should in UK be able to buy GPO's (power points) with integral RCD facility...That's one easier way for some people however they used to costs $90 here and protected up stream GPO's on the same circuit and effectively downstream). A price I just was given at over $200 cannot be right...unless the usual 'retail' which is up to 10 times trade price and never asked of a customer or achieved.

That said in France and I suppose UK safety switches as RCD combos are 3 times the price in Australia yet Rexel (I have been to their factory at Rochechouart and probably initiated the Australian purchase...) has now bought into Australian wholesaling. They should be able to sell as cheaply or more so in Europe than in Australia.
 
It is a brushed motor. It was functioning normally the last time I used it, no sparking. It is noisy compared with the hum of an induction motor, but wasn't making any abnormal noises.
Sorry then...I thought that you wrote it was 'screaming'. If your workshop is dusty at all with sawdust or hasa 'bad' sawdust collector I advise you keep doors and windows open to dilute the air-sawdust mixture.
 
Off the topic...presuming others see what I see when opening the forum ..having 75% of it hidden under advertisements is really irritating...one has to sign-in to get rid of the adverts. Is this a forum arrangement, for money? My Regards
 
Guineafowl, my nemesis...sensitive detector of parallel dimensions, ethereal spirit circling over me, seancer? perhaps ...I cross my fingers and shake them at you... begone...begone, I might cry......but alas and hail blythe spirit, (though) bird thou never wert I am merely mortal and must take the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune...and move onwards....

Whatever you put in your coffee, I want some.

Off the topic...presuming others see what I see when opening the forum ..having 75% of it hidden under advertisements is really irritating...one has to sign-in to get rid of the adverts. Is this a forum arrangement, for money? My Regards

I use an adblocker, and see no adverts. It wasn’t because of this forum, but another that started jamming ads in between lines in people’s posts. It was intrusive and annoying.

Have a look through your account settings - there may be opt-outs there. If you’re unsure, post in the website suggestions/errors part of the forum.
 
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