Electric vehicles

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Sirenity

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The action is stop the sale of cars. That will happen, but the dates may change.

Yes, you'll see ICE cars, but you probably won't be able to buy a new one. Or if you can, it will be a low production expensive exotic.
In fact, Johnson’s change was a downgrade, he brought the timing forward 5 years but changed it to the time to end all fossil fuel vehicles to the time when all vehicles must be able to use electricity. It will still be perfectly legal to buy a hybrid that only has a mini battery and motor but is to all intents and purposes an ICE car.
 

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sawtooth-9

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Electric cars might sound ok for non-commercial use over limited distances - but
there are massive ( unsolved ) recycling issues.
People who want electric cars - powered by lithium batteries - are probably helping to feed the child slave labour in the lithium mines.
An interesting calculation is the total Kw hours used by all petrol / diesel cars today.
Look at the Kw produced per litre of petrol / diesel and multiply that by the number of litres sold each year. That's a scary number.
AND this would either be replaced by power generators ( well below 100 % efficiency ), or a huge reduction in travel Km. Now, if you can't have coal, gas, or nuclear - it's going to take a mother load of wind farms and solar panels.
If the wind don't blow and the sun don't shine - you are in deep sh..t
On the up side - the coffee shops and motels will do well - catering for those poor soles waiting for their batteries to charge !
 

John Brown

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But the wind does blow some of the time, and the sun does shine sometimes. Just need a way to store it all. That's where electric cars and smart chargepoints come into their own.
Child labour in lithium mines is surely a soluble problem, albeit incurring extra costs, but it's not some immutable law of physics that states lithium has to be dug out by children.
As for efficiency, show me an ICE engine with near 100% efficiency and I'll show you my everlasting bottle of Guinness.
 

Alex H

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PHEV... Anyone explain the difference between this and a hybrid, or is just the latest fashion in EV's?
They've been around for quite a while (at least 4 years IME)

How does a plug-in hybrid car work?​


A PHEV is similar to a conventional ‘self-charging’ hybrid car, but instead of a small battery that’s charged by the car’s petrol or diesel engine, it has a larger battery that you can plug into a dedicated electric-car charger.


The bigger battery in most PHEVs has the added bonus of giving you a greater electric-only range than most conventional hybrid cars. On average, a PHEV can go between 20 and 30 miles before the petrol engine kicks in and takes over but some can cover more than 50 miles.

While the engine will charge up the battery slightly to give you a boost where needed, you’ll need to plug your PHEV into a charge point to realise its full potential. You can charge it from a household 3-pin plug or you can have a fast charger installed at your home.

dvantages of a plug-in hybrid:​


  • The main advantage of a PHEV is its greater electric-only range compared with a normal hybrid. A range of 20 to 30 miles is enough for most people’s daily commute meaning, as long as you have a charger at home, you won’t need to use the internal combustion engine very often.
  • A PHEV does away with the range anxiety associated with fully electric cars. This is because once the battery has run out, you have the backup of the petrol or diesel engine. This means you can tackle longer journeys without the fear of getting stranded between chargers.
  • You can take advantage of reduced tax rates. Taxing a typical PHEV will cost you between £0 and £105 for the first year (depending on the specific car’s emissions) and £145 per year after that. You can also enjoy a reduced rate of company car tax by choosing a PHEV.

Disadvantages of a plug-in hybrid:​

If you regularly do longer journeys, PHEVs can be less fuel-efficient than traditional petrol or diesel cars. This is because of the extra weight of the batteries. Some cars try to make up for this by fitting a smaller fuel tank, but this just means you’ll have to stop at the pumps more often.
  • Plug-in hybrids tend to be a lot more expensive to buy than a conventionally powered alternative, especially as they’re no longer eligible for the plug-in car grant.
  • You’ll need access to a mains supply or charging point overnight if you want to take full advantage of the EV range every day. Even though the UK’s charging network is expanding fast, you may find it difficult to find a charger if you don’t have access to off-street parking.
What is a Plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV)?
 

Sirenity

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PHEV... Anyone explain the difference between this and a hybrid, or is just the latest fashion in EV's?
The P denotes plug eg can be charged as opposed to the “self charging” hybrid. So a PHEV can be called a hybrid but a “mild” or self charging hybrid can’t be called a PHEV.
In practice the difference is massive. A “self charging” hybrid is a standard ice vehicle with a motor that captures slowing energy running backwards to regenerate a tiny battery instead of applying the brakes so hard. The electric power is then used to get the vehicle moving from a standing start which is the most energy dense part of most vehicle movement. So it improves the efficiency of the vehicle quite a bit just by virtue of generating electricity instead of wearing brakes but by itself travels almost no distance under electric power.

PHEVs come in a spectrum of ranges but clustered at 2 ends: the 30m ish ev range with a near normal size engine (which for many people puts the majority of their miles travelled into EV mode) and the “range extender engine” variety which has a much larger battery and a small engine and fuel tank just as a backup to do what it says on the tin. The latter is popular with those with over 200m typical days as the battery will typically have a range iro 85m and they can often charge at their work site but the range extender means no hassle with overcrowded fast chargers on the way home if not.

Both have that massive flat torque from 0 that makes pulling away in an EV such stupid fun even in little diddy city cars.

For a long while I’ve been in the “why tow an engine you hardly ever use” brigade, but for the next 6-8 years my view is reversed. In 2018 there was rarely a queue to charge an EV, now queues are bad, in 2-3 years it will be a pain until the infrastructure catches up with the 1/6 cars selling this year are ev. So that range extender becomes much more valuable asset. If I were in the market for a sub £10k car now I’d be buying a PHEV with a 50 mile range. If I did much more than 50m most days I’d likely not be in the market for a sub 10k car

Edge case scenario but for those that say that’s no use I’m higher milage and broke: I’d take the pain of charging at my destination for a year and use the 50 mile fuel savings to save the extra for a 100m range PHEV the year after, depreciated values of both ends of the PHEV spectrum are similar so you wouldn’t lose out. Charging for free while you shop at the supermarket puts another 20+miles on so allows a 70m round trip for example.
 

John Brown

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We have a Mitsubishi Outlander.
If we'd known how much electricity was going to go up in price, we might have thought twice...
Having said that, we are lucky to have solar panels, so we try to charge when it's sunny.
 

pe2dave

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The P denotes plug eg can be charged as opposed to the “self charging” hybrid. So a PHEV can be called a hybrid but a “mild” or self charging hybrid can’t be called a PHEV.


PHEVs come in a spectrum of ranges but clustered at 2 ends: the 30m ish ev range with a near normal size engine (which for many people puts the majority of their miles travelled into EV mode) and the “range extender engine” variety which has a much larger battery and a small engine and fuel tank just as a backup to do what it says on the tin. The latter is popular with those with over 200m typical days as the battery will typically have a range iro 85m and they can often charge at their work site but the range extender means no hassle with overcrowded fast chargers on the way home if not.


For a long while I’ve been in the “why tow an engine you hardly ever use” brigade, but for the next 6-8 years my view is reversed. In 2018 there was rarely a queue to charge an EV, now queues are bad, in 2-3 years it will be a pain until the infrastructure catches up with the 1/6 cars selling this year are ev. So that range extender becomes much more valuable asset. If I were in the market for a sub £10k car now I’d be buying a PHEV with a 50 mile range. If I did much more than 50m most days I’d likely not be in the market for a sub 10k car

Edge case scenario but for those that say that’s no use I’m higher milage and broke:
Many thanks, v.clear.
Looking round at (nearly) new PHEV cars, I don't see anything under £10K though.
30-40 m/day would do me 95% of the time.
It's just the initial cost that hurts :-(
 

Jacob

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I think the powered alternatives to personal ICE transport will be a short lived and expensive fashion, before reality kicks in.
Rue of thumb says tank fuel fill takes 5 minutes, EV takes 30.
Hence we'd need charging stations 6 times the number (and area + infrastructure) of current fuel pumps to achieve equivalence, even if green electricity was available in sufficient quantities, which looks extremely improbable.
 
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Jameshow

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I think the powered alternatives to personal ICE transport will be a short lived and expensive fashion, before reality kicks in.
Rue of thumb says tank fuel fill takes 5 minutes, EV takes 30.
Hence we'd need charging stations 6 times the number (and area + infrastructure) of current fuel pumps to achieve equivalence, even if green electricity was available in sufficient quantities, which looks extremely improbable.
No because for 90% journeys you can charge at home / supermarket etc.

Only longer journeys will you need a charging station.

I will miss ice cars though esp V8!
 

Jacob

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No because for 90% journeys you can charge at home / supermarket etc.

Only longer journeys will you need a charging station.

I will miss ice cars though esp V8!
Well yes except from 1/4 (rural) to 3/4 (town) homes don't have off street parking, which wouldn't be any use anyway to someone needing to charge away from home.
 

johna.clements

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Well yes except from 1/4 (rural) to 3/4 (town) homes don't have off street parking, which wouldn't be any use anyway to someone needing to charge away from home.
All problems do not have to have the same solution.

People with off street parking can charge at home.

People who work in places where there is parking could charge there. With average mileage they one have to charge one day a week so 20% of the parking places would need a charger assuming no one could charge at home.

Many people do or could use park and ride (bus or train) to get to work. 20% of those parking spaces could have a charger.

People who live or work next to supermarkets, sports facilities etc could use chargers there when the carpark is not needed. Most supermarket carparks are mostly empty on weekdays.
 

Jacob

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All problems do not have to have the same solution.

People with off street parking can charge at home.

People who work in places where there is parking could charge there. With average mileage they one have to charge one day a week so 20% of the parking places would need a charger assuming no one could charge at home.

Many people do or could use park and ride (bus or train) to get to work. 20% of those parking spaces could have a charger.

People who live or work next to supermarkets, sports facilities etc could use chargers there when the carpark is not needed. Most supermarket carparks are mostly empty on weekdays.
The same crude 6X figure is still relevant though there are various ways of implementing it. Even home charging needs an installation (£900 or so?) unless 2.4kw and 30 hours plus is acceptable
 

Spectric

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Even home charging needs an installation (£900 or so?) unless 2.4kw and 30 hours plus is acceptable
I think that for any serious fast charger you will need three phase, that can be a lot more than £900 and we must not forget that the electrical distribution system that supplies many housing estates will not have been designed to handle a large proportion of them charging electric vehicles. This issue will continue back up the grid with each supply point potentially being stretched to it's limits.
 

John Brown

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It's all been said before, both about EVs, and probably about ICE vehicles. I remember having the same discussion, almost word for word, with a work colleague, over 40 years ago, about how ridiculous the idea of long distance journeys in cars would have seemed, before the network of filling stations was established.
Jacob may well be right, we may have to adapt to the idea of restricting a lot of what is, let's face it, largely unnecessary travel. But I see a lot of talk(not just here, specifally) from people who seem to be trying to find any excuse to carry on driving conventional ICE vehicles.
 
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