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Spectric

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Reverse the problem, rather than seeking EV's so that we can continue as we do now, it would be better to reduce the commute to work so you don't need your EV to travel long distance and this requires social and society re-ordering. The problem with EV's would be solved by changing what we expect from them.
 

Spectric

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When we no longer refine petrochemicals to produce fuel for our ICE's we know there will be other losers, LPG is one and a lot of rural folk rely on this for heating, Bitumen for our roads, MDPE pipe for gas and water utilities and the list continues so we need to find solutions to these issues before getting rid of the ICE.
 

Just4Fun

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Reverse the problem, rather than seeking EV's so that we can continue as we do now, it would be better to reduce the commute to work so you don't need your EV to travel long distance
On the surface that is OK but there is precious little employment in the countryside so everyone would have to move to the towns. You would end up with even fewer people living in rural areas, villages would die and rural housing stock would be unused. Back when agriculture employed a significant workforce villages could survive and perhaps thrive as a local economy. Now that agriculture employs hardly anyone very few people can live in a village and be close to their work.
 

John Brown

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On the surface that is OK but there is precious little employment in the countryside so everyone would have to move to the towns. You would end up with even fewer people living in rural areas, villages would die and rural housing stock would be unused. Back when agriculture employed a significant workforce villages could survive and perhaps thrive as a local economy. Now that agriculture employs hardly anyone very few people can live in a village and be close to their work.
But hasn't the pandemic shown us that a large number of people can work mainly from home?
 

Just4Fun

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But hasn't the pandemic shown us that a large number of people can work mainly from home?
Yes, that is true. It will be interesting to see what long-term effect this has. We could have done that before the pandemic but not so many did. Will people/companies continue with home working or revert to their original mode of operation?
 

D_W

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Yes, that is true. It will be interesting to see what long-term effect this has. We could have done that before the pandemic but not so many did. Will people/companies continue with home working or revert to their original mode of operation?
The latter is more likely if it's cost neutral as employers generally like to keep close tabs on their employees if they can and training of new employees in most white collar jobs has been tough remotely.
 

Terry - Somerset

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One benefit of a market economy is that it finds gaps in the preconceived logic and seeks to fill them.

Oil refineries have managed to balance demand for petrol, diesel, fertilisers, plastics, oil etc through the refining process. AFAIK there is no great lake of unused hydrocarbons because demand didn't match refining capability.

I expect this to be the case as the market reacts to variable wind and solar energy. This may involve using excess output to generate hydrogen, switching recharging of vehicle (and possibly domestic) power packs, consumers flexing demand based on price, commercial and industrial users flexing demand to reduce consumption during periods of high prices.

None of this is impossible - it is all entirely feasible. That the infrastructure is not yet in place is simply due to the immediate need for rebalancing being unnecessary. As solar and wind are only a part of the current energy mix, we simply flex fossil fuel generation!
 

Jacob

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One benefit of a market economy is that it finds gaps in the preconceived logic and seeks to fill them.
....
The big dis-benefit of a market economy is that it finds gaps in the preconceived logic and;
1. seeks to fill them with any old ***** which will make money, which is basically why we are in the fix we are in.
2. Is completely unable to supply where there is no profit to be made i.e. the needs of majority of the world population who have close to zero wealth.
3 Is utterly resistant to losing trade/profit for the greater good e.g. to seek ways to reduce fossil fuel consumption.
It's all down to strong purposeful government.
Infrastructure isn't in place because governments have not demanded it not even by the easily available method if increasing taxation on fossil fuel - strongly resisted by the industry itself, along with systematic climate change denial.
Fuel prices are historically low, we are still playing in the last chance saloon, the phoney war, tipping points are being passed.
It's not looking good: Climate tipping points could topple like dominoes, warn scientists . Change in the gulf stream was talked about at length 30 or more years ago, as a probable major climate changer. It's back on the agenda as highly probable. It was ignored back then, it's ignored now, just a detail in a whole range of tipping points.
A lot of arranging deck chairs on the Titanic going on!
 
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Spectric

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On the surface that is OK but there is precious little employment in the countryside so everyone would have to move to the towns.
What I am thinking is how GEC Marconi used to get it's huge workforce into it's main site, where there were buses to collect the workers from all points on the compass and people only had to get to one of these points, now the transport could be electric buses. This highlights yet another issue, if the EV has 4 seats then they all need to be occupied to get max efficiency, single occupancy has to go as it will not be viable and buses should be used. Again this shows how radical change is needed to solve the issue and if we are really honest this is not going to happen, people have tasted a level of choice and freedom they will not want to give up.
 

Spectric

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The latter is more likely if it's cost neutral as employers generally like to keep close tabs on their employees
This is very easy with the Pc, there is software now that can perform all sorts of monitoring that the employer will claim is for personel improvement or performance appraisal. It is actually capable of recording every key stroke made and can provide the employer with all sorts of data that will show whether you are putting in the hours or just not delivering.
 

Spectric

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Yes I can clearly see @Jacob 's view, we know the iceberg is out there, not yet seen it but we are just tickling the edges with a few ideas and all we have to deal with this is a broom that we hope to push the berg out of the way when we do see it, but those in the know realise at that point it is to late.
In some ways I relate the problem of climate change to getting my head around CPUs's that can do three million instructions per second, something that I still find incredable but so will be the solution to global warming.
 

Sachakins

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This is very easy with the Pc, there is software now that can perform all sorts of monitoring that the employer will claim is for personel improvement or performance appraisal. It is actually capable of recording every key stroke made and can provide the employer with all sorts of data that will show whether you are putting in the hours or just not delivering.
There's no need for all that monitoring, since if your not delivering, then you're obviously not doing the work.

The issue is that employers want there 8 hours of time, irrespective of the actual work done.

I worked for a year at ICI, @1996, and for five days a month I would work from home doing month end analysis, reporting etc on time and revenue across UK and Dutch project teams. My manager at the time was far more progressive, and providing the report was in on time, she was happy, even if I only did 6 hours a day. She was of the mind-set that sometimes home working was far more productive than being in the office.
 

MikeJhn

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Only curious because of all of the driving assistance added to cars now. I think they try to make the supercars safe for novices, which i find boring. My days of car magazines were in the 1990s and I can absolutely believe a mild sports car back then could've been driven faster than an f40.
And of course the difference between being used to front wheel drive and then getting into a rear wheel drive car and not knowing that if the car does not have traction control/braking assistance braking has to be done in a straight line.
 

Jacob

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The big dis-benefit of a market economy is that it finds gaps in the preconceived logic and;
1. seeks to fill them with any old ***** which will make money, which is basically why we are in the fix we are in.
2. Is completely unable to supply where there is no profit to be made i.e. the needs of majority of the world population who have close to zero wealth.
3 Is utterly resistant to losing trade/profit for the greater good e.g. to seek ways to reduce fossil fuel consumption.
It's all down to strong purposeful government.
Infrastructure isn't in place because governments have not demanded it not even by the easily available method if increasing taxation on fossil fuel - strongly resisted by the industry itself, along with systematic climate change denial.
Fuel prices are historically low, we are still playing in the last chance saloon, the phoney war, tipping points are being passed.
It's not looking good: Climate tipping points could topple like dominoes, warn scientists . Change in the gulf stream was talked about at length 30 or more years ago, as a probable major climate changer. It's back on the agenda as highly probable. It was ignored back then, it's ignored now, just a detail in a whole range of tipping points.
A lot of arranging deck chairs on the Titanic going on!
More on this theme. This meme is going the rounds:

The bicycle is the slow death of the planet.
"A cyclist is a disaster for the country's economy: he does not buy cars and does not borrow money to buy. He does not pay for insurance policies. He does not buy fuel, does not pay for the necessary maintenance and repairs. He does not use paid parking. He does not cause serious accidents. He does not require multi-lane highways. He does not get fat.
Healthy people are neither needed nor useful for the economy. They don't buy medicine. They do not go to hospitals or doctors. Nothing is added to the country's GDP (gross domestic product).
On the contrary, every new McDonald's restaurant creates at least 30 jobs: 10 cardiologists, 10 dentists, 10 dietary experts and nutritionists, and obviously, people who work at the restaurant itself."
Choose carefully: cyclist or McDonald's? It is worth considering.
P.S. Walking is even worse. Pedestrians don't even buy bicycles.


The simple fact is that the benefits of "market" economies are completely random; good, bad or indifferent.
 

John Brown

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More on this theme. This meme is going the rounds:

The bicycle is the slow death of the planet.
"A cyclist is a disaster for the country's economy: he does not buy cars and does not borrow money to buy. He does not pay for insurance policies. He does not buy fuel, does not pay for the necessary maintenance and repairs. He does not use paid parking. He does not cause serious accidents. He does not require multi-lane highways. He does not get fat.
Healthy people are neither needed nor useful for the economy. They don't buy medicine. They do not go to hospitals or doctors. Nothing is added to the country's GDP (gross domestic product).
On the contrary, every new McDonald's restaurant creates at least 30 jobs: 10 cardiologists, 10 dentists, 10 dietary experts and nutritionists, and obviously, people who work at the restaurant itself."
Choose carefully: cyclist or McDonald's? It is worth considering.
P.S. Walking is even worse. Pedestrians don't even buy bicycles.


The simple fact is that the benefits of "market" economies are completely random; good, bad or indifferent.
Interesting viewpoint.
I would take issue with the "slow death of the planet" part. The economy, maybe. The planet will survive most things.
 

Spectric

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The issue is that employers want there 8 hours of time, irrespective of the actual work done.
Yes this is something that software can deliver, if you look at the data file from say employee X then you will know when they logged on, keyboard activity over a period of time and if they are looking at anything not work related during that time, it is big brother. It will clearly show periods of inactivity and there are many functions that it can deliver to produce the boss all the data he/she needs to evaluate that employee's performance.
 

hairy

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More on this theme. This meme is going the rounds:

The bicycle is the slow death of the planet.
"A cyclist is a disaster for the country's economy: he does not buy cars and does not borrow money to buy. He does not pay for insurance policies. He does not buy fuel, does not pay for the necessary maintenance and repairs. He does not use paid parking. He does not cause serious accidents. He does not require multi-lane highways. He does not get fat.
Healthy people are neither needed nor useful for the economy. They don't buy medicine. They do not go to hospitals or doctors. Nothing is added to the country's GDP (gross domestic product).
On the contrary, every new McDonald's restaurant creates at least 30 jobs: 10 cardiologists, 10 dentists, 10 dietary experts and nutritionists, and obviously, people who work at the restaurant itself."
Choose carefully: cyclist or McDonald's? It is worth considering.
P.S. Walking is even worse. Pedestrians don't even buy bicycles.


The simple fact is that the benefits of "market" economies are completely random; good, bad or indifferent.
How does cycling to MiccyDs fit into that? :)
 
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