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Spectric

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But there has to be a point where we have what is required but not over the top, if we are going to prevent a fourth extinction event due to global warming and climate change then the changes we need to make will be very radical, there is no way that our current lifestyles are sustainable long term and just going from ICE to EV's will not solve the problem, we need to get back to a more basic way of living so that we are not stretching resources to the limit. Just because we have got used to a car does not mean that at some point we will not be priced out of ownership and have to use public transport, but everything needs to change in order to accomodate a new way of living.
 

selectortone

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And my grandparents lived in a house with no running water, no central heating and a long drop in the garden, they were perfectly fine. All these things in our houses are luxury and we don't need them. I'll phone the plumber and send him over to yours to take out your taps, you don't have a problem with that I assume?
Sorry, little fishies not biting today
 

Sachakins

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Just a thought on tge 2025 ban.

How will the government deal with their vehicles, ie Bullet proof limousines, high security vehicles for likes of diplomats, royalty, also those that feel the need for attack proof cars.

Will they extend the ICE ban to the likes of new military vehicles, police vehicles, emergency vehicles, ambulances etc.

Would love to see the performance of a challenger tank on batteries....

Also is the proposed ban on ICE to include motorcycles, boats, barges.

What about generators, construction and agricultural vehicles and machinery.

Think that a 250 tonne crane lift going to be unlikely for years to come.

Also changing over the entire public transport fleet, busses, trains, ferry boats.

🧐🧐
 

Rorschach

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Just a thought on tge 2025 ban.

How will the government deal with their vehicles, ie Bullet proof limousines, high security vehicles for likes of diplomats, royalty, also those that feel the need for attack proof cars.

Will they extend the ICE ban to the likes of new military vehicles, police vehicles, emergency vehicles, ambulances etc.

Would love to see the performance of a challenger tank on batteries....

Also is the proposed ban on ICE to include motorcycles, boats, barges.

What about generators, construction and agricultural vehicles and machinery.

Think that a 250 tonne crane lift going to be unlikely for years to come.

Also changing over the entire public transport fleet, busses, trains, ferry boats.

🧐🧐
Expect so many U-turns you won't know which way is up.
 

D_W

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I should add to my comment above, the Tesla S has one configuration that offers two three phase motors with a combined 825 brake horsepower, but in a format that two fit in the car. Pricing an
An electric motor is simple compared to an ICE, it is a rotary device that works on magnetics wheras the ICE is a reciprocating device that works on thermodynamic's and burning fuel whilst trying to be clean but the price is all down to marketing and volume of sales.

If you look back to when the stop / start technology made an entrance one of the better systems was I believe designed by Delphi and utilised the flywheel as a stator and coils in the bell housing which gave high torque for lower currents due to the diameter, with EV's they need to look at incorporating the motors into the wheel assemblies, you now have no transmission and no mechanical diff just direct drive.
I think most of the service vehicle gliders have motors at the wheels. While ICEs are complicated compared to electric motors, there's nothing expensive in the materials. Electric motors are the opposite.
 

D_W

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I think the younger generation cannot believe that we used to have cars that had only manual locking, manual window winders and no graphic displays to remind us that we have left a door open, but then is that because we knew that you have to shut the doors without being told! We also had to pull out the choke knob and pump the throttle to hopefully start the engine and then it took ages to warm up to get any heat inside. As for seat adjustment, that was only forwards or backwards and I can remember a car that if you pushed to hard to get more room it just came off the runners. What about wing mirrors, actually mounted on the wing and made of metal the same as our chrome bumpers, who thought of just having cosmetic plastic bumpers. Have we really progressed, no all we have done is made things complicated and tried to make them iiiidiot proof.
I'll bet the electric lock sets now cost less to make than a good mechanical door set and then they give the manufacturer a revenue stream that they didn't have as far as parts go.

My first cars were from the 1980s and had manual everything. One of the two had no ac and the other had so little power that when you turned on the ac compressor, it would lurch (80 horsepower).

The biggest difference I notice isn't the power add ons, but that even base model cars can pull the hills here in Appalachia with no problem. My 80s v6 truck had to be downshifted to pull hills, and the base model had less than 2/3rds the power and no overdrive standard in that version.
 

Spectric

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there's nothing expensive in the materials.
The basic materials will be comparable in price, but the price for production moulds for casting cylinder blocks, heads, pistons and other parts is astronomical and will not be needed for an EV, you now have another group of companies that will lose out.
 

TominDales

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The video I linked to with the silly Audi commented that Euro 7 coming in very soon (2025) may well make ICEs too expensive, too complicated and not worth the manufacturer investment considering the supposed ban in 2030 for "green" reasons, so that rather than any EU govt will stop the sale of new ones.
I had stupidly thought that Euro 6 being really quite good from an emmissions pont of view the politicians would stop there.

Would anybody comment on how sensible the Cornwall mining of lithium is? How can the whole process be competitive if UK wages throughout are to be paid? Ethical maybe but sellable?
Two comments. Firstly the Euro 7 is the reason why the industry is changing to EV, they just cant make the emission at reasonable cost and the regs were only going to tighten, so they have chosen EV as its an investable solution. Its why the auto-council created the APC, to lobby to get £1bn fund and £500m of taxpayer support to develop ICE. The EU is spending over e2bn on the same developments.

Lithium and chemical processing in general in the UK is relatively competitive..
In general the UK chemical industry competes globally very well, its an net exporter. Unlike the automotive industry the chemical industry has very high productivity, ratios, one of the highest of all industries. at about £90k per person. This gives it a cushion against cheap labour.
A chemical plant is basically a computer controlling some pipes these days. Most processes are continuous so need very little labour to operative. The labour comes with maintence shutdowns, and R&D etc.
There are two main disadvantages opposite china;
Firstly environmental, until recently its was hard to compete against Chinese production that had lower environmental standards, or no regulations at all. The cost of capital in the west was a disadvantage. However China is tightening environmental regs fast as its consumers want a better standard of living which means better air and water quality.

The other issues are economies of scale. Unless the lithium deposits are substantial enough it will be hard to achieve economies of scale. This is usually the secret weapon in the Chemical industries as its takes roughly as much to runs and maintain a giant plant as a smaller one..
Finally, the cost of capital in China is much lower than the UK.
Having said all that the UK and EU compete well, especially the big German producers such as BASF. The biggest problem for the UK is that our shareholders sold out to overseas companies for a quick buck and now most chemical companies are overseas owne.
 
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GuitardoctorW7

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I'm sorry if this has been debated before, but, why the hell are we (society) not pursuing Hydrogen powered vehicles more? Yes the fuel cells are expensive to produce, but that cost would diminish with mass production. The range of a HPV vehicle is more akin to an ICE. 5 minute fill up and the only by-product is water. To re-battery an EV is the best part of £10K and the environmental cost is huge. I used an HV taxi the other month and it was great. The driver said the only downside was there were only a couple of refuelling stations around.
 

plum60

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Apart from the new starts-up such as Tesla I don't know of many tradition ICE producers who are enjoying this change. Its a conservative industry, it requires about £1bn to build a new model and smaller companies like JLR are fining it hard to raise that kind of finance for their fleet. Even VW and Toyota are terrified that this disruptive change will allow new entrants to take their market. A sizable chunk of the value of an EV is its battery, this is good for the chemical industry but not so good for the car industry as the EV bit is more strait forward.

You and Ozi have commented that EVs should be simpler but the manufacturer then adds complexity back into the vehicle with extra features. The head of Ford UK described his latest model as an ipad on wheels. I did a project for Bentley to take weight out be replacing steel with light weight carbon fibres. The chief engineer told me that the weight saving then gets eaten by adding more stull to the car. He told me that each front seat has 27 motors.....We as consumers have to stand back and see the bigger picture from time to time, or we will end up driving around in our living rooms:)
The future of the motor industry is hydrogen. Jaguar made a huge mistake investing in all Electric whereas smart trade is already gearing up for water power. Interestingly the new all electric jag is made in Austria and they just put the badge on it when it gets to the uk- it still can't go far without having to be charged but goes very very fast they say. Grids are being made for roads so you drive over them to charge your vehicle a bit like how you can charge your phone by placing it on top of a charging pad. The industry is charging relatively high prices for new vehicles that will have a limited life time it seems. Water powered cars are currently a strong point with Asian car makers, the uk needs to speed up. Getting info from the actual makers can take you down the right road... with water power.
 

Cooper

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with EV's they need to look at incorporating the motors into the wheel assemblies, you now have no transmission and no mechanical diff just direct drive.
I thought this was an obvious solution but someone who understands motor vehicles better than I do explained that it is important for suspension etc that the wheels are as light as possible. It seemed to me that it would be possible to have permanent 4 wheel drive with no differentials only requiring a little chip to workout the different revs for each wheel. I even worked out a spread sheet formula that could do the sums.
What I can't understand is why a simple vehicle like the old VW microbus, beloved of surfers and hippies isn't produced. I'm sure that young people should be the driving force of EV take up, (they don't require all the home comforts of us old crusties). If the vehicles were simpler and cheaper and more versatile they would be the height of trendy fashion. A few years ago a new camper, based on the old type 3, was produced. Without all the camping clutter it would have been the ideal platform for an EV. VW have a concept version but its its an all bells and whistles thing, miles away from what we drove around in, in the 70s.
 
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Garden Shed Projects

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I am always a little suprised that high end car manufacturers don’t have a line of light weight efficient vehicles. The likes of Ferrari, Maclaren etc. don’t follow Caterham or Arial and create vehicle that are designed from the ground up as light weight, thus efficient vehicles. It isn’t like there are cost constraints within there markets and using modern materials and engine designs they could create something really special.
A 500kg Ferrari with a 1.6 litre V6 any one.
The halo effect of these vehicles could drive a renewed interest in lightweight simplistic vehicles for the mass market.
Colin Chapman had it right. Design the car and then add lightness.
 
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D_W

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I'm sorry if this has been debated before, but, why the hell are we (society) not pursuing Hydrogen powered vehicles more? Yes the fuel cells are expensive to produce, but that cost would diminish with mass production. The range of a HPV vehicle is more akin to an ICE. 5 minute fill up and the only by-product is water. To re-battery an EV is the best part of £10K and the environmental cost is huge. I used an HV taxi the other month and it was great. The driver said the only downside was there were only a couple of refuelling stations around.
It costs twice as much to make a hydrogen fcv and there's no distribution of hydrogen, and it's expensive where it's distributed. Bevs are economically feasible now. Hydrogen is reformed from natural gas right now.

Toyota has spent a lot of money on fc vehicles and if they could make them economically, they would. A $80k Toyota Prius with expensive fuel doesn't exactly serve the masses.
 

D_W

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I am always a little suprised that high end car manufacturers don’t have a line of light weight efficient vehicles. The likes of Ferrari, Maclaren etc. don’t follow Caterham or Arial and create vehicle that are designed from the ground up as light weight, thus efficient vehicles. It isn’t like there are cost constraints within there markets and using modern materials and engine designs they could create something really special.
A 500kg Ferrari with a 1.6 litre V6 any one.
The halo effect of these vehicles could drive a renewed interest in lightweight simplistic vehicles for the mass market.
Colin Chapman had it right. Design the car and then add lightness.
How do you make them safe at low weight? In a crash, that is. Once you get on the highway, low weight doesn't really make much difference. One would wonder why we don't stamp dimples in car body parts yet as that absolutely increases cruise efficiency.
 

TominDales

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But there has to be a point where we have what is required but not over the top, if we are going to prevent a fourth extinction event due to global warming and climate change then the changes we need to make will be very radical, there is no way that our current lifestyles are sustainable long term and just going from ICE to EV's will not solve the problem, we need to get back to a more basic way of living so that we are not stretching resources to the limit. Just because we have got used to a car does not mean that at some point we will not be priced out of ownership and have to use public transport, but everything needs to change in order to accomodate a new way of living.
We are consuming 6 planets worth of resources in the west. We need to adjust to a more sustainable lifestyple, EVs are a start, but over time we will need to get more frugal. New technology will help but we will need to ajust our lifestyles to bring everything back in kilter.
 
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