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Spectric

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That is going to be the issue, I think the pandemic has shown people will accept change such as the lockdown for a short period but we are looking at a permanent change which will only be the start of a massive social upheaval but it will be pointless unless it is a global change, the UK can be an example of perfection but that alone will not save the planet or prevent the fourth extinction event.
 

Ozi

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Has to be landrover, or maybe Jag but I cannot see why any vehicle needs that many control modules unless they are all single purpose. Complexity is always a big factor in unreliability, automotive connectors are just as cheap as chips and you can see a big cost saving can be made here by combining more functions into fewer control modules, easily done these days with everything sitting on buses.
Neither of those although I used to work for JLR
 

D_W

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Vehicle manufactures must be loving all this. They will no longer have to produce engines with 100's of precision parts and will no longer have to do any more engine development. They will no longer have to produce gearboxes with 100's of precision parts also no clutch. They seem to be able to charge more money for less vehicle content and don't even to have to give any discount incentives as the government now seems to think that they should do that.
You should probably look at the electric motors that a Tesla uses before considering that they're simple and cheap.
 

Sachakins

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We are still fairly early in the manufacturing and design of usable and affordable EV and as is the norm in this part of vehicle development, manufacturing designers are falling over themselves to produce super fast variants, outrageous 0 to 60 figures, and are just trying to prove that the EV can be as entertaining as other sports cars.

We need less focus on this and more on usable family and smaller size cars.
Also government should remove the discount subsidy altogether, as I believe the manufacturers are keeping prices artificially high and using the subsidy as a marketing device,
Remove the subsidy and manufacturers will have to compete more fiercely on prices to get sales.
 

TominDales

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has anyone actually looked at how many jobs would go? An ICE is far more complex than an electric motor and has more sub systems and components so take the batteries out of the equation the EV must cost less to produce and should be cheaper to purchase.
You highlight a big issue with the switch from ICE to EV. ICE are much more complicated, with lots of mechanical components. Many of the parts for ICE are made be precision engineering firms North of Manchester. Its not just the midlands than make cars. I hear a talk from one of the guys setting up a precision engineer centre in Rochdale to help re-purpose companies into other markets. As you say many suppliers are going to find life very touch pose ICE.
The Advanced Machinery and Productivity (AMP) Institute receives funding boost this is quite a small initiative, but many more of these initiative will be needed or there will be a lot of sick tier 2 suppliers.
 

TominDales

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Vehicle manufactures must be loving all this. They will no longer have to produce engines with 100's of precision parts and will no longer have to do any more engine development. They will no longer have to produce gearboxes with 100's of precision parts also no clutch. They seem to be able to charge more money for less vehicle content and don't even to have to give any discount incentives as the government now seems to think that they should do that.
Apart from the new starts-up such as Tesla I don't know of many tradition ICE producers who are enjoying this change. Its a conservative industry, it requires about £1bn to build a new model and smaller companies like JLR are fining it hard to raise that kind of finance for their fleet. Even VW and Toyota are terrified that this disruptive change will allow new entrants to take their market. A sizable chunk of the value of an EV is its battery, this is good for the chemical industry but not so good for the car industry as the EV bit is more strait forward.

You and Ozi have commented that EVs should be simpler but the manufacturer then adds complexity back into the vehicle with extra features. The head of Ford UK described his latest model as an ipad on wheels. I did a project for Bentley to take weight out be replacing steel with light weight carbon fibres. The chief engineer told me that the weight saving then gets eaten by adding more stull to the car. He told me that each front seat has 27 motors.....We as consumers have to stand back and see the bigger picture from time to time, or we will end up driving around in our living rooms:)
 
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hairy

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The video I linked to with the silly Audi commented that Euro 7 coming in very soon (2025) may well make ICEs too expensive, too complicated and not worth the manufacturer investment considering the supposed ban in 2030 for "green" reasons, so that rather than any EU govt will stop the sale of new ones.
I had stupidly thought that Euro 6 being really quite good from an emmissions pont of view the politicians would stop there.

Would anybody comment on how sensible the Cornwall mining of lithium is? How can the whole process be competitive if UK wages throughout are to be paid? Ethical maybe but sellable?
 

Terry - Somerset

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each front seat has 27 motors.....We as consumers have to stand back and see the bigger picture from time to time, or we will end up driving around in our living rooms:)
Being wholly rational, cars are devices to provide transport from A to B, ideally reasonably comfortably, safely and reliably. For most, cost will also be an issue.

Strangely, most cars in which we spend only a few hours a week (typically) have features and equipment which is wholly absent from the houses we spend most of our lives in.

It reinforces the conclusion that the car is as much an expression of status as need - compared to a house, even the most expensive cars are cheaper, with the added advantage that where ever you go the car goes too. You will never be far from your pxnxs extension!
 

John Brown

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Being wholly rational, cars are devices to provide transport from A to B, ideally reasonably comfortably, safely and reliably. For most, cost will also be an issue.

Strangely, most cars in which we spend only a few hours a week (typically) have features and equipment which is wholly absent from the houses we spend most of our lives in.

It reinforces the conclusion that the car is as much an expression of status as need - compared to a house, even the most expensive cars are cheaper, with the added advantage that where ever you go the car goes too. You will never be far from your pxnxs extension!
It's been that way for decades. How many of us have electric windows in our houses? Or electrically adjustable seats?
Our house doesn't even have windscreen washers, we have to pay someone to come round and wash the windows once a month.
I'll bet more people in the UK have AC in their cars than in their homes. I suppose it's a smaller space, for one thing, and the necessary glass area can make it very hot.
 

Rorschach

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Strangely, most cars in which we spend only a few hours a week (typically) have features and equipment which is wholly absent from the houses we spend most of our lives in.
This is an interesting statement, could you expand on it? What features does a car have that our houses don't, I am assuming the features you are thinking of are superfluous?
 

Just4Fun

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Strangely, most cars in which we spend only a few hours a week (typically) have features and equipment which is wholly absent from the houses we spend most of our lives in.

It reinforces the conclusion that the car is as much an expression of status as need ...
Certainly status v need is one possible factor. Another is that a large proportion of new cars sold are sold to companies rather than to individuals. Many people are thus getting new cars without paying for them themselves. That must inevitably lead to feature creep; if not paying for the car they will drive, most people will opt for more gadgets that if it was coming out of their own hard-earned money.
 

Terry - Somerset

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What features does a car have that our houses don't, I am assuming the features you are thinking of are superfluous?
Whether they are superfluous is a personal opinion, based on personal circumstance, but:
  • climate control - most houses have heating, almost none have cooling. Control is typically by central or zoned thermostat, sometimes manual radiator thermostatic valves. Very few houses have climate control capable of being set with separate zones in a single room, or through a touch screen or central controller
  • central locking - most houses have separate manually operated locks for front, back, patio, shed and garage doors to be locked on leaving the home
  • electric windows - rare in most properties - house windows (and doors) typically need separate closure and opening.
  • car security includes internal movement sensors, coded keys etc - houses typically have Yale or similar lock, some may have limited security - cameras, lighting, alarms
  • electric adjusted memory seats - in a house - mainly available to help the elderly and infirm get up and sit down. Sometimes a luxury picce of furniture.
 

Terry - Somerset

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Certainly status v need is one possible factor. Another is that a large proportion of new cars sold are sold to companies rather than to individuals. Many people are thus getting new cars without paying for them themselves. That must inevitably lead to feature creep; if not paying for the car they will drive, most people will opt for more gadgets that if it was coming out of their own hard-earned money.
Most companies like to save money and would normally resist actions which drive up costs.

However in recruiting and retaining good staff it may be cheaper to "blow" an extra £100 per month on a fancy lease car than give a material pay increase - eg: £100pm is an increase of only 3% on a salary of £40k pa.

Staff member feels valued - everyone can see the motor, few see the payslip. Customers and business contacts believe that anyone who drives a fancy car must be a valued high performer, worthy of respect and someone with whom to be associated in business. All staus really!
 

Rorschach

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Whether they are superfluous is a personal opinion, based on personal circumstance, but:
  • climate control - most houses have heating, almost none have cooling. Control is typically by central or zoned thermostat, sometimes manual radiator thermostatic valves. Very few houses have climate control capable of being set with separate zones in a single room, or through a touch screen or central controller
  • central locking - most houses have separate manually operated locks for front, back, patio, shed and garage doors to be locked on leaving the home
  • electric windows - rare in most properties - house windows (and doors) typically need separate closure and opening.
  • car security includes internal movement sensors, coded keys etc - houses typically have Yale or similar lock, some may have limited security - cameras, lighting, alarms
  • electric adjusted memory seats - in a house - mainly available to help the elderly and infirm get up and sit down. Sometimes a luxury picce of furniture.
Climate control: Well a house doesn't heat up or cool down as fast as a car and is far more protected from sun with a lower glass to volume ratio. This seems a silly feature to dismiss.
Central locking: Your house doors don't all open at the same time and aren't all used at the same time by different people exiting. Central locking seems a very sensible feature that allows for a single person or multiple occupants to enter/leave the vehicle without having to lock each door manually.
Security: You can't jump into a house and drive it off, it is also usually easier to break into a car than a house. Increased security is a prudent idea.
Adjusted seats: Correctly adjusted seats are essential for comfort and safety in a car, not so in a house.
Electric Windows: Opening manual windows is a safety concern when driving and impossible to do any others than your own if alone in the vehicle. Not an issue in a house.

Sorry but this list is just silly, a house and a car are not comparable items in any of these cases. You are not far short of saying "SatNav's, why would you want a satnav in a car, you don't have one of them in your house."
 

Spectric

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You should probably look at the electric motors that a Tesla uses before considering that they're simple and cheap.
An electric motor is simple compared to an ICE, it is a rotary device that works on magnetics wheras the ICE is a reciprocating device that works on thermodynamic's and burning fuel whilst trying to be clean but the price is all down to marketing and volume of sales.

If you look back to when the stop / start technology made an entrance one of the better systems was I believe designed by Delphi and utilised the flywheel as a stator and coils in the bell housing which gave high torque for lower currents due to the diameter, with EV's they need to look at incorporating the motors into the wheel assemblies, you now have no transmission and no mechanical diff just direct drive.
 

selectortone

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Climate control: Well a house doesn't heat up or cool down as fast as a car and is far more protected from sun with a lower glass to volume ratio. This seems a silly feature to dismiss.
Central locking: Your house doors don't all open at the same time and aren't all used at the same time by different people exiting. Central locking seems a very sensible feature that allows for a single person or multiple occupants to enter/leave the vehicle without having to lock each door manually.
Security: You can't jump into a house and drive it off, it is also usually easier to break into a car than a house. Increased security is a prudent idea.
Adjusted seats: Correctly adjusted seats are essential for comfort and safety in a car, not so in a house.
Electric Windows: Opening manual windows is a safety concern when driving and impossible to do any others than your own if alone in the vehicle. Not an issue in a house.

Sorry but this list is just silly, a house and a car are not comparable items in any of these cases. You are not far short of saying "SatNav's, why would you want a satnav in a car, you don't have one of them in your house."
I rode in and drove cars for 30 years that were perfectly fine without climate control, central locking, electric windows and had only the most basic seat adjustment.

The original point was that these features are all luxuries and it was perfectly valid.
 

NikNak

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This is an interesting statement, could you expand on it? What features does a car have that our houses don't, I am assuming the features you are thinking of are superfluous?
You asked, Terry replied (with what i thought were reasoned replies), you didn't like his (reasoned) replies, so threw your toys out of your 'ICE' pram and proceeded to diss all his answers in the only way that you seem able.

Oh... satnav in my house.? yes i have many.... on my/our phones, tablets and computer... they're called google maps, and i use them a lot to find out where a place is how far it is and the best way to get there, turn by turn, the same as the system in my car. Try it... you might like it....

Now... where's that block button...
 

Spectric

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I think the younger generation cannot believe that we used to have cars that had only manual locking, manual window winders and no graphic displays to remind us that we have left a door open, but then is that because we knew that you have to shut the doors without being told! We also had to pull out the choke knob and pump the throttle to hopefully start the engine and then it took ages to warm up to get any heat inside. As for seat adjustment, that was only forwards or backwards and I can remember a car that if you pushed to hard to get more room it just came off the runners. What about wing mirrors, actually mounted on the wing and made of metal the same as our chrome bumpers, who thought of just having cosmetic plastic bumpers. Have we really progressed, no all we have done is made things complicated and tried to make them iiiidiot proof.
 

Rorschach

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I rode in and drove cars for 30 years that were perfectly fine without climate control, central locking, electric windows and had only the most basic seat adjustment.

The original point was that these features are all luxuries and it was perfectly valid.
And my grandparents lived in a house with no running water, no central heating and a long drop in the garden, they were perfectly fine. All these things in our houses are luxury and we don't need them. I'll phone the plumber and send him over to yours to take out your taps, you don't have a problem with that I assume?
 
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