Electric vehicles

[MusicMan]

Similar experiences re my Leaf, though haven't done many miles yet because of lockdown. I found LV a very good insurance company and they understand EVs. The insurance covers a tow to the nearest charging point if you run out! And costs half of what my old Merc 200 estate cost with a broker-found insurer..

I would never arrive at friends and expect to plug in without notice. In the two trips that I had planned and were cancelled for lockdown, I contacted the hosts and asked if it would be possible to charge there from a 13A socket. One said no problem, the other said they don't have a driveway so sorry but no. So that meant allowing for a commercial charge point on the way there or back, which is no problem.

The Leaf is leased, and I'll need just one service in the two-year lease, already paid for in the lease costs.

Try not to trash a tyre though. I did just that on a sharp-edged wall in my own drive! EVs need premium tyres (for grip plus low rolling resistance) which cost a lot, and at the moment are very hard to get - stocks are low because of lockdown.

 

[TRITON]

Im actually also about to !GO ELECTRIC!, but with bikes as i dont drive.

Major dilemma currently is the cost of Emtb's compared to what else you can get for £5K. For the life of me I just cant see how they justify those kind of prices, compared with a trade thicknesser(£1500) or even a trade panel saw, both of which will offer decades of service, and you'd still get change back.

 

[Droogs]

Would you not be better off getting a conversion kit first @TRITON and bolt that to a current bike. that is what I am about to do to help me get back into excercise

 

[TRITON]

Would you not be better off getting a conversion kit first @TRITON and bolt that to a current bike. that is what I am about to do to help me get back into excercise

Unfortunately my current ride is a freeride bike with big brakes and big forks and it has the ability to commute/shop but also anything else you want to do with it, voted for 5 years as the most capable bombproof mtb available. A conversion kit i'd lose it and it wouldnt perform as well.
Plus for decades ive been seeing bits(mostly knackered) of these conversion kits come up on ebay. Though I expect these days as tech has increased the type/power and quality is far better, but again its you get what you pay for and a good conversion kit should set you back 600+

I felt that to have electric you get the specifically designed electric bike. It's just the price I balk at. Having built and owned and ridden some 20 bikes over the last 15 years I know what they cost really, and overheads aside that type is pretty much just fleecing the buyer.
Would you buy a makita biscuit jointer for Lamello price ?.
So you can see the overpricing is extreme. where the components of the bike add up to less than the motor, yet plugged out in the thousands.
My bike above the frame cost 600, the wheels and brakes another 750, the forks 500, so in a bike/build like that you can justify how it adds up financially. But with these Ebikes, the wheels cost 150, the brakes 50 and the fork 150, yet the total rice is £4500. To me its just a headf*** they can charge so much for pants parts.



If it wasnt for my health/leg prob, i'd use the money to coat the tool wall in Lie Nielsen

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Bikes are a little like cars or workshop kit.

1. For most people they are two wheels, occasionally assisted by an electric motor. Price is the major determinant
2. Some will appreciate there is probably a difference between a £600 ebay special and a £1200-1500 model from a "proper" bike shop.
3. Only the bike obsessed, the very knowledgable or professional user would appreciate the difference a £5000 bike brings

I can understand going for a (2) - a little research will probably justify the cost. The marginal gains going (2) - (3) completely escape me. Some may understand or appreciate the difference, but choice is usually based on brand perceptions, illusory quality or performance benefits.

Just as all new cars will get from A to B. A £10-12k new car will be small, limited luggage capacity, limited performance, bit noisy, poorly equipped.

Step up to a sweet spot - say £25-30k and you will get a comfortable, quiet, adequately fast, reasonably equipped vehicle.

More than (say) £40k and you are buying unusable performance, ego boosting brand recognition, and (very occassionally) a specialist vehicle - eg: to tow a 2 ton caravan or horsebox across muddy fields.

Of course, it is not a moral or pragmatic decision - if you have the money and enjoy it, buy whatever takes your fancy!

 

[beech1948]

The pace of business is slowing so I have just swapped cars with one of my technicians...my Mercedes S for his Tesla 3. Plan is to use it for around a month including some long journeys eg 380 miles so I can begin to understand what the impact of charging is to me and the team. That is in terms of time lost, cultural changes, maintenance if any etc. So far I am very curious and quite excited.

I am an agnostic when it comes to EVs but we have to move with the times.

 

[Geoff_S]

The pace of business is slowing so I have just swapped cars with one of my technicians...my Mercedes S for his Tesla 3. Plan is to use it for around a month including some long journeys eg 380 miles so I can begin to understand what the impact of charging is to me and the team. That is in terms of time lost, cultural changes, maintenance if any etc. So far I am very curious and quite excited.

I am an agnostic when it comes to EVs but we have to move with the times.

That's a great opportunity to decide if it's right for you. I have had my e Golf for just over a year now and although I had done a lot of reading, there were a few things I discovered in ownership, or re-inforced what I had already read. Ultimately the e Golf is a great EV for urban/suburban sub 120 mile day trips, well, that's my assessment anyway, and it works for us. We have garage & driveway to charge, and we use a 3 pin plug, just fine. I reckon it satisfies 95% of my journeys and around 40% of my miles.

I do understand that the Tesla 3 is a different kettle of fish with a much longer range. Have fun!

Be nice to hear what you think in a month's time.

 

[Rorschach]

I reckon it satisfies 95% of my journeys and around 40% of my miles.

What do you do for the other 60% of your miles?

 

[Geoff_S]

What do you do for the other 60% of your miles?

I have another car.

 

[Rorschach]

I have another car.

Have you worked out if the costs of owning the electric car make your overall travel expenses cheaper?

I know for my own situation I could do a lot of our trips in an EV, but an ICE is still essential for a proportion of our travel at the moment. I think overall it is cheaper to just run 1 ICE vehicle than an EV as well. Have you done that calculation or is that not important in your decision to own an EV?

 

[Geoff_S]

Have you worked out if the costs of owning the electric car make your overall travel expenses cheaper?

I know for my own situation I could do a lot of our trips in an EV, but an ICE is still essential for a proportion of our travel at the moment. I think overall it is cheaper to just run 1 ICE vehicle than an EV as well. Have you done that calculation or is that not important in your decision to own an EV?

Interesting question and one that I did indeed ask myself at the time.

I live in SW London and hence a lot of my trips are stop/start slow crawl jobs that just drink petrol. On the other hand I have a number of regular long distance journeys each year which are far more fuel efficient.

Also, we have always had a second car, so that requirement is factored in with our calculations.

Then if you are in the second car scenario, you have to take into account what your first car is. If it's a diesel golf for example, then the cost savings aren't going to be as great as say compared to a V8 Range Rover.

To answer your question directly, in this restricted COVID year it's saved us about £100pm, and I would expect that to be more like £150+ in a normal year,

But that is our scenario and I think the point here is that personal scenario is going to be different for other people, and rather than see EV vs ICE as some sort of binary decision, realise that EVs today are another potentially viable option if your scenario fits. It's a bit like when I travelled 21 miles across West London twice a day for 12 years. I eventually bought a motorbike as a viable alternative to a car, for that scenario. And that saved me time & money. If I had the option of an EV, then that would have saved me money but not time.

Oh, and I really like driving an electric car, I really like 3ppm and so many other little nuances in this whole subject.

Ultimately, only you can answer your question for your personal situation.

Cheers

 

[Rorschach]

@Geoff_S thanks for the very reasoned reply.

We currently do about 6k miles a year (I am disregarding 2020 of course), up to 50% of those miles are on longer trips or where we require a high load capacity, so an EV is not currently practical. Our ICE car is certainly much more expensive to run than an EV but I am certain that the costs of running an EV as a second vehicle, probably depreciation alone in fact, would not be offset by any savings we could make.

Switching to an EV only option is also not practical as a long range estate size vehicle is way out of our budget.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

For a household with two or more cars and off road parking the option to have one EV is generally going to be easy. We have:

• a 2 year old car which is needed for long trips (eg: 400+ miles in a day) several (5-15) times a year. With an EV, I would currently be concerned about speed and availability of recharging.
• a 10 year old city car which does 2-3000 miles a year owned from new. It is reliable and does what it says on the can. This could be an EV if we so chose. However I can see little justification for upgrading to an EV which would cost £20k+.

We are fairly unconcerned about image, gizmos etc so there is little point in changing for no good reason. Until the 10 year old starts to cost it won't get replaced. If/when it does EV may be an option.

I can fully understand why those with a single car who ocassionally drive long distances would not want to change to an EV today. A new EV is unaffordable for many, there are few available second hand, and they command premium prices.

I still remain convinced that EVs are the future - in 3-5 years time charging may be perceived as far less of an issue, and a much higher volume of cars will be available s/h.

 

[Droogs]

@Terry - Somerset
very interesting post, I thought this vid may be of interest. Gives current experience of an owner and also shows what is coming up in the very near future

 

[Just4Fun]

We currently do about 6k miles a year

As you do so few miles I don't think any savings from using an EV could every pay back the initial investment. Instead I would look at it in reverse: doing so few miles is not going to cost a fortune in fuel no matter what you drive. So in your position I would ignore fuel costs and run a gas-guzzler that appeals for some other reason, such as luxury, performance or whatever floats your boat. Such vehicles depreciate a lot from new so you could buy a little-used second-hand example comparatively cheaply and enjoy it.

 

[NikNak]

Yes i saw that clip the other day have you watched the one where he's trying to convince his wife that 'maybe, just maybe the Tesla is the better option...' it is sooo funny

 

[Rorschach]

As you do so few miles I don't think any savings from using an EV could every pay back the initial investment. Instead I would look at it in reverse: doing so few miles is not going to cost a fortune in fuel no matter what you drive. So in your position I would ignore fuel costs and run a gas-guzzler that appeals for some other reason, such as luxury, performance or whatever floats your boat. Such vehicles depreciate a lot from new so you could buy a little-used second-hand example comparatively cheaply and enjoy it.

I am quite happy to have something fairly eco friendly such as a high MPG petrol vehicle. Our current vehicle doesn't go great on the MPG as the engine is underpowered for the weight of the vehicle. it wouldn't surprise me if the owner costs (MOT, Tax, Insurance etc ) equal the fuel costs over the span of a year, especially for 2020.

Luxury doesn't interest me, nor performance. I don't drive fast and I don't need gadgets, the only "luxury" I insist on in a car is air conditioning as I can't bear to be hot and sweaty when trying to concentrate on driving. Otherwise I don't care what gadgets it has.
For me a car is a practical necessity, I like something with good load carrying space and 5 seats, but also reasonably easy to park. I would be happy with a small van/people carrier, but currently we settle for an estate. Any EV we bought would have to be at least as big as our current car and they are not really available it seems. We can't justify 2 cars.

If road tax/fuel duty etc were changed into a per mile system with a higher price for ICE and lower price for EV then it might make sense to keep a large ICE and buy a very small EV but since it currently costs me at least £500 per year just to keep the car on the road, regardless of how many miles I do, an additional vehicle does not appeal.

 

[D_W]

Have you worked out if the costs of owning the electric car make your overall travel expenses cheaper?

I know for my own situation I could do a lot of our trips in an EV, but an ICE is still essential for a proportion of our travel at the moment. I think overall it is cheaper to just run 1 ICE vehicle than an EV as well. Have you done that calculation or is that not important in your decision to own an EV?

This is much like the truck conversation in the US. I realize that giant 3/4 ton personal trucks are probably not common in the UK, but in the US, it usually goes like this:
* Why do you buy a $48k 3/4 ton truck. Aren't 90% of your miles commuting? Insurance, car payment and gas eats you up on that when something half the size would cover you most of the time
a: well, I can't get lumber, plywood or tow a trailer with what you're talking about and I need to be able to do that
* "how many times a year do you do that"
a: every couple of months
* "why don't you rent a truck for $75 a day when you do that?"
a: it's too much of a hassle - they probably wouldn't be available, either
* "ever try renting one? you reserve it online, they drive to your house and pick it up when you're done"
a: nope, not interested
* OK, so it doesn't sound like you actually need the truck, you just want it
a: you don't know what you're talking about, I need it. renting wouldn't work

(and I wouldn't be seen in a car half the size, my friends would make fun of me is what the person with the truck is really thinking).

My point with that is that I actually am the guy with the smaller car (by US standards, average for UK, I guess). When I need a truck or cargo van, I rent it. The cost of rental is usually a sale deal because I would only need one weekend or holiday and the rental companies struggle to get trucks and vans or really anything rented when it's not a typical business day rental. It costs me about $40 to rent a van for a short pickup (i just rent from a moving company - they charge a small amount then 60 cents a mile), or about $70 a day to rent a van or truck from a rental car company - sometimes it's half that - for unlimited mileage.

If someone has an EV and they make two trips a year or even one a month or whatever where they just wouldn't be able to live with an EV, then it's really easy just to rent a car that fits rather than owning a second one (or something that doesn't make sense 95% of the time).

In the rural areas and midwest here, people hate EVs - it's a political thing. When you get to remote areas, they do drive long distances over flat areas and ICE cars do far better for efficiency there than they do in populated areas, so they do have that on their sides. But they're immune to rational discussion about renting a car when they'd actually need to drive more than 240 miles in a given day. Immune to it because they're pretty much immune to rational discussion that makes them think you're some "big city person who doesn't think like an individual like we do out here in the sticks".

(I'm not really either - grew up rural and live in the surburbs. I just kind of like things that make sense analytically).

 

[D_W]

(i can walk to the rental car place here, so even if they didn't pick up the car, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. I asked the guy why they do that now, and he said that a lot of the weekend rentals are drug dealers using fake payment info. The payment goes through, but it's not attached to the individual - and when they're done, they abandon the car. However, if the rental car offers to pick up the rented car, they're glad to call and say where they abandoned it. They have to spend less time trying to find cars or retrieving them unexpected places at unexpected time by just offering to pick them up, and most of the on-the-ground employees are college students, so they're not paying them much to pick up a few cars an hour.

hah!)

 

[Rorschach]

@D_W You make a good argument there and I am sure for some people that would make perfect sense.

I have rented Vans (we don't use trucks here) before to move house, they are not cheap but not terribly expensive either. The trouble for me, inconvenience. I often have to transport larger items at short notice, renting would be a big hassle. Renting for long distance travel, not a great option, it's quite expensive to rent a vehicle for a week for instance especially if you want to rent something suitable for collecting dirty materials, our local firm has a limit on how far away you can take the vehicle without paying an extra premium for instance.

As I have said in a previous post, the savings from an EV just don't outweigh the costs of owning an ICE, if I did the longer trips maybe just once a year it would make sense, but the frequency for me means any rental costs would far exceed any savings.