Electric vehicles
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I hope the chancellor and government can find new jobs for all those displaced from the automotive and gas industries. It takes a lot of people to develop a combustion engine compared to an electric motor. Then they still want to pursue the nuclear option, thats never going to be green due to handling and storage of the byproducts that hang around for millenium.
I hope the chancellor and government can find new jobs for all those displaced from the automotive and gas industries. It takes a lot of people to develop a combustion engine compared to an electric motor. Then they still want to pursue the nuclear option, thats never going to be green due to handling and storage of the byproducts that hang around for millenium.
billw
The Tattooed One
31 December 2029?
beech1948
Established Member
I've been wondering what the Gov'mt should do...I mean really useful actions not ban petrol/diesel by 2030.
Step one would be to get the EV industry people to standardise on battery type, shape and fitting as well as all the associated electronic control gubbins. Once standardised in sizes of say 30Kw, 50Kw, 75Kw , 100Kw and maybe 120 or more Kw sizes then users would get to choose which they wanted to afford.
At present ALL of the EV batteries are proprietary and designed to fit for one car only. Thus manufacturers can decide how much battery life you will get and at what costs. So the poor old buyer is forced into the difficult balance of costs between car and battery size and thus range.
Standard batteries would also cause a rapid simplification and standardisation of charger plugs.
Cars might become commodities and cheaper. After all who cares if they dive a Golf, Maserarti or Rolls Royce. A range of similar types of vehicle would be fine. I of course will keep my old Porche 911.
Step one would be to get the EV industry people to standardise on battery type, shape and fitting as well as all the associated electronic control gubbins. Once standardised in sizes of say 30Kw, 50Kw, 75Kw , 100Kw and maybe 120 or more Kw sizes then users would get to choose which they wanted to afford.
At present ALL of the EV batteries are proprietary and designed to fit for one car only. Thus manufacturers can decide how much battery life you will get and at what costs. So the poor old buyer is forced into the difficult balance of costs between car and battery size and thus range.
Standard batteries would also cause a rapid simplification and standardisation of charger plugs.
Cars might become commodities and cheaper. After all who cares if they dive a Golf, Maserarti or Rolls Royce. A range of similar types of vehicle would be fine. I of course will keep my old Porche 911.
billw
The Tattooed One
Well how much displacement will there be? The vast majority of the vehicle will remain as is, it still needs an engine albeit a different and simpler one, still has a gearbox. KInda tough on the manufacturer of fuel tanks I suppose.
There will still be engineers working on new technologies in the engine department.
I mean sure I'm not denying there will be change, but jobs will come and jobs will go just the same as they have over the decades as technology and lifestyles evolve.
Woody2Shoes
Impressive Member
It's interesting to 'hear' you 'say' that. I live in a relatively rural area. I have a small collection of aerial photos from the end of the war to today. Comparing my village in the 1940's to now on these photos - the difference is striking - most houses had a footpath at the front, from the front door to the road, now they have multiple cars/vans parked.
I think that car ownership has grown hugely in the last fifty years or so - and has enabled people to live/work in ways which would not have been considered sensible/feasible a generation or two ago. The railways had a similar effect - and Covid has made many people realize that 'commuting' isn't quite as 'necessary' as people once thought.
I think that local retail may see a resurgence. Of course, now we all have come to think of a car as being indispensable, it will be harder to put the genie back in the bottle, but it really just needs a different way of thinking/living.
I would say it's not as simple as working from home and having a local shop though. Families are more spread out and people are much more used to travelling not just for shopping but for leisure activities as well.
Londoners probably won't notice any change (likely why the London centric government is coming up with this stuff) but the majority of people don't live in London.
Londoners probably won't notice any change (likely why the London centric government is coming up with this stuff) but the majority of people don't live in London.
The difference will be enormous, where I used to work there were many engine dyno's running 24/7 to design, develope and calibrate powertrains, large teams working on everything from cylinder head design to engine dynamics and auxilaries. Once you go electric most of these positions cease because you do end up with just a motor, no clutch or gearbox and the only area that will be needed is probably the electronics for control. If you look under the bonnet of a current car and then imagine its got an electric motor you will see what can be discarded.
Woody2Shoes
Impressive Member
It's funny how in many other countries, all the young people want to live and work in a city and see the countryside as 'backward'. In the UK we seem to have the opposite notion - everyone seems to dream of living 'in the country' - in fact we, to an ever increasing extent, end up with an American-style car-enabled-suburbia (the worst of all possible worlds!).
Terry - Somerset
Established Member
Society in the UK (and probably much of the developed world) has evolved to embed cheap flexible personal transport as the enabler of social interaction, jobs, shopping, leisure, family, schooling etc.
Reversing the process will not be quick or easy.
For city dwellers the economics could work in favour of a transition to public transport, driverless pods on demand, e-bikes etc.
In rural areas distances are longer, and user volumes smaller, Personal mobility will continue to be a necessity for most.
Reversing the process will not be quick or easy.
For city dwellers the economics could work in favour of a transition to public transport, driverless pods on demand, e-bikes etc.
In rural areas distances are longer, and user volumes smaller, Personal mobility will continue to be a necessity for most.
Benchwayze
Established Member
Let's hope the powers that be can first sort out the massive infrastructure required, to go along with this switch to alternative propulsion. If the Covid crisis is anything to go by then heaven help is!
John
John
Any sensible answers?
It's clear that ICE vehicles will be around for many years after 2030. From an environmental standpoint it makes sense to make your ICE vehicle last as long as economically viable.
My current car is 13 years old and realistically has another 5 years in it maybe. I am thinking it might make sense to buy a new ICE in say 2025/6 and then hopefully get 15 years out of it by which point I might be able to afford to buy a new or nearly new EV.
Droogs
Not the Sharpest Moderator in the box
Why not buy a 2nd hand BEV instead of a new ICE car. That is the environmental thing to do, not add the the guff we already breathe in. Bur we al know R and where your priorities lie. The £ 
is far superior and more important than the lb
is far superior and more important than the lbWhy not buy a 2nd hand BEV instead of a new ICE car. That is the environmental thing to do, not add the the guff we already breathe in. Bur we al know R and where your priorities lie. The £
It depends whether a 2nd hand BEV is affordable or practical for our needs at the time, if it is then I would consider it of course but at the moment no BEV being produced is suitable for us, so unlikely something 2nd hand will be available in a few years time.
I say new ICE, it would likely have to be 2nd hand but as new as possible.
It would be nice to have no £ worries as you seem to, unfortunately the £ is very important when you don't have very many of them to spare and you need to make them go as far as possible for you.
Down with fossil fuels.
There I've said it.
A bit oldie worldie these days as tech moves ever forward. And not just the pollution side which we just cannot ignore any ore.
coal, oil etc are there but like all energy production, they cost money to extract.
Solar, wind and wave power are in their infancy, so we cant demonize then, and there have been big advances as billions goes into research. Back to 1.5ah battery drills
EVERYTHING starts expensive and then filters down to less and less. £10 for a mobile anyone. Original price of the first mobiles were $3,995.
Wind seems the best, and if it spoils the landscape then sorry thats the price, which is considerably less and less damaging than a smog soup.
Once that infrastructure is up, and investment pretty much covered the price will come down.
Well maybe not in the UK which lfleeces its citizens for everything, but I recklon theres an election winner out there once E vehicles become the norm.
There I've said it.
A bit oldie worldie these days as tech moves ever forward. And not just the pollution side which we just cannot ignore any ore.
coal, oil etc are there but like all energy production, they cost money to extract.
Solar, wind and wave power are in their infancy, so we cant demonize then, and there have been big advances as billions goes into research. Back to 1.5ah battery drills
EVERYTHING starts expensive and then filters down to less and less. £10 for a mobile anyone. Original price of the first mobiles were $3,995.
Wind seems the best, and if it spoils the landscape then sorry thats the price, which is considerably less and less damaging than a smog soup.
Once that infrastructure is up, and investment pretty much covered the price will come down.
Well maybe not in the UK which lfleeces its citizens for everything, but I recklon theres an election winner out there once E vehicles become the norm.
Most BEV's do use common cells from panasonic, samsung etc. They will then package them depending on their use, vehicle architecture etc and customise the control system to achieve/meet their requirements. Whether they be performance or marketing based.
Much of the energy was/is going into keeping the pack at optimum condition. Think cold temp start, heater, usb, wipers, lights, massive draw on energy from cold. On the golf we see 150 miles range in summer and it drop to nearer 100mile range in winter. Not tested how accurate as very conscious of not going beyond 80% capacity draw down.
The differing charge connectors are a ball ache, but once you know which ones are compatible, the app or just the signage makes it clear what can go where. Sometimes you may have to pre-plan, but thats a learning thing. We'll plan around the 'free' chargers, ie park at tesco charging points and do the family shop. Not going to be feasible post 2030 me thinks, or much sooner.
Tesla was using standard cells but are developing their own, probably as a marketing exercise and to give them some bargaining power as the big traditional brands ramp up and pre buy all available cell capacity.
Much of the energy was/is going into keeping the pack at optimum condition. Think cold temp start, heater, usb, wipers, lights, massive draw on energy from cold. On the golf we see 150 miles range in summer and it drop to nearer 100mile range in winter. Not tested how accurate as very conscious of not going beyond 80% capacity draw down.
The differing charge connectors are a ball ache, but once you know which ones are compatible, the app or just the signage makes it clear what can go where. Sometimes you may have to pre-plan, but thats a learning thing. We'll plan around the 'free' chargers, ie park at tesco charging points and do the family shop. Not going to be feasible post 2030 me thinks, or much sooner.
Tesla was using standard cells but are developing their own, probably as a marketing exercise and to give them some bargaining power as the big traditional brands ramp up and pre buy all available cell capacity.
Felix
Established Member
There are other factors that come into play on this whole electric car thing. They are definitely the way to go, but going totally electric from the start is a bad idea. Ideally I think that all vehicles should be hybrid for a period of at least 10yrs after the change-over deadline, and there should be the capability of removing the diesel/petrol side of the fuel system after the 10yr transition period.
Can you imagine how many people in electric only vehicles will get themselves unintentionally stranded on motorways or in rural/remote areas without any form of propulsion? Hybrid vehicles with, say for example, should be fitted with a 2 gallon auxilliary fuel tank (that could only be used in emergency) to get them out of trouble.
Vehicles should be able to generate a significant amount of the energy required to recharge the batteries whilst they are moving. Micro wind turbines, electricity generated from wheel rotation (like a generator - but there might be weight issues there and the obvious braking dilemma!!)
After all this recharging how will the inevitable 'mountain' of dead batteries be dealt with? I guess they will be heading for India or Africa.
At the moment there are approximately 38.4 licensed vehicles on the road in the UK. If 10% of those owners suddenly bought an electric vehicle there would be carnage. There would certainly not be enough infrastructure to support them. I thought the idea was to reduce the number of vehicles on the road not change the type of fuel they use.
A better public transport system is a very good option - but do you think any government wants an all singing - all dancing public transport system where the number of vehicles on the road was significantly reduced - I doubt it - imagine the massive reduction in revenue for the treasury coffers. That money would have to be recouped elsewhere - and guess who's going to pay? They might talk the talk - but they definitely do not walk the walk.
I think diesel/petrol vehicles will be around for quite some time yet.....long after I'm gone.....and you just know that whatever government is in charge at the time they will - as sure as eggs is eggs - screw it up......
Oh - and don't forget - once they've got you hooked on electricity - AND THERE'S NO OTHER FUEL ALTERNATIVE - you know what's going to happen to the price....... and I meant that pun .....
Can you imagine how many people in electric only vehicles will get themselves unintentionally stranded on motorways or in rural/remote areas without any form of propulsion? Hybrid vehicles with, say for example, should be fitted with a 2 gallon auxilliary fuel tank (that could only be used in emergency) to get them out of trouble.
Vehicles should be able to generate a significant amount of the energy required to recharge the batteries whilst they are moving. Micro wind turbines, electricity generated from wheel rotation (like a generator - but there might be weight issues there and the obvious braking dilemma!!)
After all this recharging how will the inevitable 'mountain' of dead batteries be dealt with? I guess they will be heading for India or Africa.
At the moment there are approximately 38.4 licensed vehicles on the road in the UK. If 10% of those owners suddenly bought an electric vehicle there would be carnage. There would certainly not be enough infrastructure to support them. I thought the idea was to reduce the number of vehicles on the road not change the type of fuel they use.
A better public transport system is a very good option - but do you think any government wants an all singing - all dancing public transport system where the number of vehicles on the road was significantly reduced - I doubt it - imagine the massive reduction in revenue for the treasury coffers. That money would have to be recouped elsewhere - and guess who's going to pay? They might talk the talk - but they definitely do not walk the walk.
I think diesel/petrol vehicles will be around for quite some time yet.....long after I'm gone.....and you just know that whatever government is in charge at the time they will - as sure as eggs is eggs - screw it up......
Oh - and don't forget - once they've got you hooked on electricity - AND THERE'S NO OTHER FUEL ALTERNATIVE - you know what's going to happen to the price....... and I meant that pun .....
billw
The Tattooed One
Just as an aside, it;s been a few years since I visited Germany, but I am sure some of the autobahn had overhead wires on the inside lane for trucks to draw power much like trains do. Obviously this doesn't stop them overtaking because they can use their battery power before switching back to the grid.
Who knows - maybe all motorways will be eventually fitted with similar tech!
Who knows - maybe all motorways will be eventually fitted with similar tech!
clogs
just can't decide
there's also a big problem with old fuel to worry about......
the rubbish they add to petrol atracts water and rot's everything it touches......
Ur Hybrid with old fuel still wont run properly.....
aslo...
if the likes of the fuel companies didn't buy up all the patents for better engines would we be so far down this messy road....?
the rubbish they add to petrol atracts water and rot's everything it touches......
Ur Hybrid with old fuel still wont run properly.....
aslo...
if the likes of the fuel companies didn't buy up all the patents for better engines would we be so far down this messy road....?
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