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Electric vehicles - again

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NikNak

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Does it offend anyone else that England imports so much of it's power, we live on a windy island
As an island surrounded by water why is there not more tidal power. The tides are guaranteed, wind isn't.
 
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shed9

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As an island surrounded by water why is there not more tidal power. The tides are guaranteed, wind isn't.
That is already underway with multiple projects around the UK however England seem to be lacking.

Out of interest; Wales is a net exporter of the electricity it generates with around 58% going over the border to England. Scotland is in a similar situation exporting around 42%. Wales and Scotland have used renewables to ramp up this position and are further investing heavily into tidal. England within the context of Great Britain is by far the biggest user of electricity (around >80%) but you could argue that Great Britain isn't a signifiant importer as generation is shared within those territories. On the other hand, from an individual country (i.e. principality) perspective it could appear skewed as the biggest CO2 emitter is a power plant in Pembrokeshire.

Personally it's all academic as the tipping point has been reached and we are truly done anyhow. Happy Sunday.
 

Ozi

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Interesting real life ev woes


Maybe I should have read the instructions!
As an island surrounded by water why is there not more tidal power. The tides are guaranteed, wind isn't.
Tidal power has it's own issues, personally I think it's suffering from under funding and deliberate miss costing but taking a large amount of energy out of the sea has consequences, get the hydrodynamics wrong and you can end up with a constant need to dredge to keep the system running. In some areas you need to sort out the poor levels of sewage treatment - not reasons to give up on a very reliable power source. At small scale wave energy used as protection to eroding coasts has potential to fix two issues at the same time. I'm certain it will be an increasing part of the mix, we do seem to love putting all our eggs in the first basket to come along.

We are close to the maximum economic capacity with wind generation. Hence the need for storage, it's rarely calm for more than two weeks. At present we store about 1% of the power we generate and pay others to take the rest off our hands. Simple equation Increased storage capacity equals an increase in maximum economic renewable generating capacity when it is windy / sunny / the tide is coming in or out etc. It also smooths out peaks in demand reducing the need for rapid response generation which is currently mainly gas generated.
 

Spectric

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Oh that video does bring back some horrendous memories of working with domestic electric's and how in most cases you would come across bodges that had been done by a builder, the home owner or a kitchen/bathroom fitter and all totaly oblivious. As for EV's they had put themselves into a corner by advertising on their van that they did EV charging points, so they really needed to demonstrate support but as electricians should have known better.

The thing I noticed was how the windscreen demister was really poor, and once you travel to a job, do a days work then you may have to sit around at some charging point on the way home which is not good.
 

Sporky McGuffin

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They came across as a bt dim (van-wise). They could have had the heated windscreen on the one they bought, or used the cabin pre-heat with it still plugged in.

And they did buy the lowest range electric van on sale...
 

hairy

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If cross channel relations were a bit better I would think when the UK started building lots of turbines but no storage for their output the idea may have been for gas storage and supply from over the water in exchange for wind power when they're turning in the UK. Since future carbon costs will become more of a thing this could have benefited the UK quite well I would think? In the same way Tesla make lots of money selling carbon credits they have no use for.

A friend has a PHEV, small battery for short local runs such as to the station for work and school runs. Small battery means it can sensibly make use of a 13amp plug, engine means it can take them as far as they want on trips without worry but most weeks the engine doesn't go on, minimal CO2 at source.

If North Sea turbines can make hydrogen at the mast which then gets piped to shore, "green" hydrogen rather than "blue", we would be well placed for that too perhaps.

I wonder where the minimal car approach will take us? No caravans, no family camping really, no space for a dog, no space for kids friends? The Suzuki Cappuccino was supposed to be a good little thing with a tiny wizz bang turbo engine for two person fun. a limit of 500cc and 50mph would be fine for two people, maybe with a group share people carrier which of course is not a bus cos it would go where you want to when you want to with what you want to.
 

Terry - Somerset

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The minimal car really starts to work either as a second vehicle in the household, or when they can be delivered for use on demand.

A minimal car needs to be defined - say: max speed of 50-60mph, max weight of 300kg, space for 2+ a few shopping bags, range ~30-50 miles. Small low weight means small batteries which means 13amp charging generally feasible.

To encourage adoption - priority or free car parking, no tax, possibly driven by 16+ (as mopeds etc), no VAT on purchase, use bus lanes etc.

As a second vehicle this could be attractive to a lot of city and town dwellers - covers most shopping, school run, short or moderate commutes, local socialactivitty etc.

Milton Keynes are also trialling an app based system where a remotely driven small car is delivered, you drive to destination, remote control drives it to next user (or recharge station). This may turn out to be the future for many.
 

alz

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I am surprised more use is not made of hydro power in this country. My father worked with the North of Scotland Hydro Electric Board, and recalled the enduring success of dams built in Scotland to generate power just after WW2.
He also had a set of 1890's bound volumes of Work, An Illustrated Weekly for Mechanics, which featured everything from woodwork to early electric systems. Included were details of small-scale hydro turbines quite widely used by Victorian landowners.
 

D_W

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I am surprised more use is not made of hydro power in this country. My father worked with the North of Scotland Hydro Electric Board, and recalled the enduring success of dams built in Scotland to generate power just after WW2.
He also had a set of 1890's bound volumes of Work, An Illustrated Weekly for Mechanics, which featured everything from woodwork to early electric systems. Included were details of small-scale hydro turbines quite widely used by Victorian landowners.

I recall reading the account of someone who had a small scale turbine installed next to an old mill. It was a private generation station selling power back to the utilities and generating something like 350kw (to you and me, this is an enormous amount of power - to the utility, I guess it's a nuisance).

It's too long ago now for me to remember all of the details other than them saying that it was less profitable than people would guess due to the fact that it seemed like most regulators and utilities weren't really interested in the idea of small independent generators. This may sound like a conspiracy thing, but I think it's more practical than that. The regulation and compliance that goes along with utilities in the US makes for a huge number of man hours to go through the red tape.

Just as the ag department talks about wanting family farms to be enduring, they enact one thing after another in terms of rules that show what they'd really like is a smaller pool of farmers that's easier to push around and monitor. Why would a smaller farmer be harder to push around? The answer to that is simple - you implement rules, the small guy drags his feet and fights. If 5% of the group does that, it's a huge drag. If you have 1 large producer instead of 25 small ones, they have the capitalization and size to comply and then maybe lobby or something else later.
 

PhilipL

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I am surprised more use is not made of hydro power in this country. My father worked with the North of Scotland Hydro Electric Board, and recalled the enduring success of dams built in Scotland to generate power just after WW2.
He also had a set of 1890's bound volumes of Work, An Illustrated Weekly for Mechanics, which featured everything from woodwork to early electric systems. Included were details of small-scale hydro turbines quite widely used by Victorian landowners.

It blocks rivers, changes downstream environment through slower movement of debris etc., blocks fish, blocks canoeists. I think I saw a few days ago an old dam being removed from some Scandinavian country, and there are companies which will remove them for you - Home - Dam Removal Europe
 

Ozi

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The minimal car really starts to work either as a second vehicle in the household, or when they can be delivered for use on demand.

A minimal car needs to be defined - say: max speed of 50-60mph, max weight of 300kg, space for 2+ a few shopping bags, range ~30-50 miles. Small low weight means small batteries which means 13amp charging generally feasible.

To encourage adoption - priority or free car parking, no tax, possibly driven by 16+ (as mopeds etc), no VAT on purchase, use bus lanes etc.

As a second vehicle this could be attractive to a lot of city and town dwellers - covers most shopping, school run, short or moderate commutes, local socialactivitty etc.

Milton Keynes are also trialling an app based system where a remotely driven small car is delivered, you drive to destination, remote control drives it to next user (or recharge station). This may turn out to be the future for many.
Agreed at present most useful as a second car, I still think the way forward is a hire contract, for me most of the time I would want the smallest cheapest, lightest vehicle going just to get me 20 miles each way to work or as tonight take my daughter to Scouts and back and do the odd small shop. It would need to be quick enough not to be a liability on a duel carriageway say 60 mph. I want batteries I can lift out, two trips is fine if it gets me 100 mile range so I only do it twice a week and have the option to charge a spare set indoors slowly on cheap rate power if I'm not using a charge point. BUT sometimes I want a 4/5 seat car like the one I drive now with a range over 200 miles even with the lights on and the heater running, very occasionally I want a van or a pick-up. I think there are a lot of people in my position, if we all drove micro cars there would be a market for people to hire the other vehicles to us as needed either as direct swaps on the same contract or as at present the way I sometimes hire a van. Volume is the key, the car I started this thread with is a disappointing $16,000 built in high volume I could see that being halved. Sort out the power generation and storage issues, put solar panels on warehouses before green fields etc and we are there - simples! .....or not.
 

John on the Wirral

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The problem with fully electric cars is that makers seem to concentrating on the fantastic efficiency of the electric motor so building cars that make use of this efficiency - 0 to 60 in no time etc. and bigger family cars. Only the French seem to be looking at the massive potential market of shopper cars. However,their efforts tend to quad bikes with a lid on that don't have to comply with the strict EU regs on safety so they are nt the answer. Dacia are looking at the issue and many more will follow in the next couple of years I think -hope!
John on the Wirral
 

Terry - Somerset

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The strategy of electric car makers may be the same as ICE car makers - more gizmos, better performance, visible status cues sell cars.

Price seems to be less of a barrier - if a buyer can afford a new car costing (say) £10k+ they are unlikely to be deterred by an extra £10-30 per month for a lease or PCP deal.

The only manufacturer I can immediately think of that seeks to make a virtue out of cheap, basic, devoid of frills is Dacia. It is debatable whether they will continue as an economy brand - their cheap "bottom of the range" models are lower volume than their mid and upper range variants.

Change may only happen with legislation - eg: EVs with (say) a maximum weight of 500kg, a top speed below 60 mph, four wheels, etc able to be driven by 16 year olds and in city centres. Different safety standards - better than bikes and scooters but less than full size cars.
 

Woody2Shoes

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It blocks rivers, changes downstream environment through slower movement of debris etc., blocks fish, blocks canoeists. I think I saw a few days ago an old dam being removed from some Scandinavian country, and there are companies which will remove them for you - Home - Dam Removal Europe
The point is that in the UK, we've run out of suitable geography for hydro. Much of our existing hydro is used for energy storage - 'pumped hydro'.

Until we have a few more suitable mountain ranges, perhaps in a few more million years, we can't expect any more exploitable hydro resources in the UK. Tidal (and wind) resources, on the other hand, are world-class, and are crying out for further investment.

There are several mediaeval tide mills along the south coast of England - exploiting the tides is nothing new!
 

Woody2Shoes

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Do not underestimate the Chinese. They are already making cheap electric cars in large volumes:



Anyone who underestimates Elon Musk is brave (aka foolish), anyone who underestimates the Chinese is mental:

 

doctor Bob

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Fusion by 2050, better much improved solar technology. I think power will be fine for the future, but as for all the rubbish and pollution we produce I think we are cabbaged
 

doctor Bob

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Interesting thing on the TV last night.
All the people who demonstrated about Colston in Bristol, 99% would carry a smart phone. So are they sticking their heads in the sand when it comes to slave labour mining lithium, making chips etc as it really isn't quite so convenient to throw your phones into Bristol dock as a protest to slavery. Yet modern day slavery is far more important as we could actually save lives, rather than mourn ones already lost.
 

Droogs

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The affordable good value cars are coming within the next 12 months. The Chinese companies that are launching in europe see well spec'd but not over spec'd good value mass sales as the way to go. This will build a strong market share for them and in 5 - 10 years when people want to renew they will have the loyalty to stay with the maker they have and probably upgrade and pay far more then
 

fred55

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Far too much thought going on here ! its about time for a little self indulgence - my car developed a fault which would cost more to repair than it was worth so needed a replacement only condition I pull a caravan - had a look at the hybrids - plug ins - mild hybrids - phevs - Evs - fast charges etc etc etc non of these pretend Scalextric could pull any thing worth while So to hell with logic and going the way government is wanting me to go - I've always wanted a Toyota Landcrusier So got one - its too big, only 30mpg, costly to buy, but I don't do many miles anyway and it can pull a caravan So after 60yrs of lusting its MINE !. At last a car to climb into not fall down on I look down on the roofs of most cars and feel superior (in my head anyway). As for electric cars I'll have one put in the boot for the grandkids to play with Ha Ha as for the sensible electric generation you don't think the government going to let you have cheap transport they will have thought of a Tax for you we just don't know about it yet !
 
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