Quantcast

Easiest Blade and Chisel Sharpening

UKworkshop.co.uk

Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:

thetyreman

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2016
Messages
2,717
Reaction score
53
Location
North West
Ttrees":2i19z5fu said:
Trevanion":2i19z5fu said:
As for Sellers, I don't think you can get much better for the fundamental basics of the craft, but he can be quickly outgrown and students move onto more complex work and teachings elsewhere. You can't really say anything he shows is wrong persay as it all works to a degree, but it can be vastly improved upon as mentioned above.
I beg to differ Trevanion,
The absolute worst of the worst is that plane rehab video.
That should be taken down.
I learned the hard way on how to do this right.
Pure bad form, really throwing his plane out of whack by those lapping shenanigans,
I do realise over 99% of videos of this procedure are also showing incorrect methods, but folks actually listen and copy Sellers, after all he has shown some skills.

Planing isn't one of them though, which is evident from the get go watching him plane long timbers unsupported, and in a vice?
Perfect.....ya right, cringeworthy those antics are.

Ever seen his attempts to do the opposite of the textbooks, lifting the back of the plane =D>
Grasping at straws that is.
Charlesworth is known for demonstrating and explaining the most clearly, light years ahead of anyone else, and demonstrates lifting the plane in an exaggerated fashion for newbies to understand and not waste their timber.

After watching Charlesworth check out David Weaver for cap iron demonstrations.
No one else has really done as good a job as these two guys.

I wouldn't be so damming if Sellers had removed that video, or at least bothered to realise
that it is detrimental to the tool, and acknowledged this.
It's not fun making a mess of the plane you have wanted and been saving up for.
Wasting timber is one thing, but damaging you tool is on a whole other level

Tom
he's not going to remove the video just specifically for you Tom, that really is ridiculous and not very realistic.
 

D_W

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2015
Messages
4,516
Reaction score
4
Location
PA, US
thetyreman":1lm02add said:
D_W":1lm02add said:
FatmanG":1lm02add said:
Before that, he trained as a joiner. Not as a cabinetmaker or instrument maker.
so did chippendale! I think it's essential to understand joinery in cabinetmaking.
I think cabinetmakers probably get plenty of training on joints. My understanding of joiner over there is that it's general, like carpenter or housewright here.

There's nothing particularly wrong with paul - that's not where I'm going. But he's not in the same class as the folks who have done work for a living vs. teaching. There's no shame in that. The finest workers usually aren't that patient with students, or even apprentices.

I noticed when I talk to George Wilson that (I have a friendship with George, so it's not always work related) when conversation goes aside and I start asking him questions, he doesn't talk much about method. He talks about results. Design and results, that's about it.

My travels with sharpening are no more important than anyone else's, except in the case where someone is discussing what they've read vs. what I've done if they have only read stuff that I have done. I think I could teach people to sharpen well, but I'm not sure that I've ever done it in person. It's a different dynamic.

You know I have this big gimmick with the double iron. It's perhaps the greatest thing to ever happen to planes and users of them who like to work from rough wood. I have shown local people here who have businesses with beginners the effect of the cap iron on curly soft maple taking a huge heavy cut and still leaving a surface that just needs a light smoother pass or two. I have never had any of them say "show me what you did". They just say "my students probably wouldn't grasp that. I teach them to scrape and sand. We only use planes for joints.

What can you say to that? I have bored people to death with esoteric stuff about stones, but I'm entertaining myself talking about them. They all work. I have my preferences, but my preferences wouldn't be great for beginners.
 

Nigel Burden

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2018
Messages
312
Reaction score
37
Location
Dorset
DW, that post hits the nail fairly and squarely on the head. Someone who is a master of a craft usually doesn't have the patience with a student who struggles. It involves being able to take yourself back to their level, especially when a action is automatic. This isn't easy, I know. I am a retired ADI, driving instructor to most, you have to think what am I actually doing when I perform this task, and then put it in simple terms. It requires a lot of patience, and a good few do shout :roll:

Nigel.
 

thetyreman

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2016
Messages
2,717
Reaction score
53
Location
North West
Sellers did make and sell his furniture for a living though, he has mentioned this many times in his blogs, he did this for many years before teaching.
 

FatmanG

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2019
Messages
267
Reaction score
9
Location
Leeds
You don't have to be jurgen klopp to teach novices the offside rule. If to be a teacher you have to be the best then there would be no teachers especially if they get slaughtered for doing so. God help the human race then. Its Xmas time for merriment and good will no need to pull anyone down. Not IMO its just not very nice. :ho2
 

Jacob

Established Member
Joined
7 Jul 2010
Messages
16,119
Reaction score
0
Location
Derbyshire
Just watched Sellers vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE4yVgdVW7s
Spot on. He does what I do - start 30º and dip for a rounded bevel. So simple and obvious.
I'd start on the fine though and only move coarser if a burr didn't show up very quickly.
Also I use a Norton stone for preference. They are abrasive all the way through and last for life, not just a thin short-lived layer like a diamond stone. Best when worn hollow a bit and produce a camber with no extra effort.
 

AJB Temple

Finely figured
UKW Supporter
Joined
13 Oct 2015
Messages
3,042
Reaction score
292
Location
Tunbridge Wells
Amazed really that a thread on sharpening can take so long. Couple of anecdotes. I worked in Japan for a while and was very interested in high end artisan kitchen knives. Shigs and such like. Learnt to make knives there. Most of the basic sharpening gets done on a massive (about a metre across) water stone and they typically finish on one flat water stone over a water bath. They don't make a song and dance about it, it is all done freehand, and the outcome is sharp enough to split a hair.

For chisels and plane irons I use whatever I've got to hand. This could be my dad's ancient oil stone, wet and dry, water stones, diamond plate, or the Robert Sorby. Usually use a leather hone and a bit of paste. I don't think it matters much. If I am sharpening for fine work, then I will take extra care. But for normal everyday work, about 10 seconds on the linisher, and a quick strop, and I am good to go. It so happened that today I've had to chop out for fitting 4 mortice locks and 4 spring bolt keepers. All in situ. Chisels got clonked around a bit and were all touched up on the RS as that is in my temporary workshop. I don't love the Sorby but it is quick. I hardly ever use anything other than a very fine belt on it.

People overthink it much of the time. For kitchen knives I only use the Japanese water stones. But that is largely because I have a sharpening drawer in my kitchen. Knife stuff can get obsessive but I pulled back from that. It's just metal.
 

ED65

Established Member
Joined
3 Dec 2015
Messages
3,593
Reaction score
0
Ttrees":1ps1cal7 said:
I beg to differ Trevanion,
The absolute worst of the worst is that plane rehab video.
That should be taken down.
Oh hey hang on a sec, I'll leap to his defence on that one!

Ttrees":1ps1cal7 said:
I learned the hard way on how to do this right.
ORLY? If it's different from the way I do it how can it be right? </sarcasm>

You see my point I hope.

Ttrees":1ps1cal7 said:
I wouldn't be so damming if Sellers had removed that video, or at least bothered to realise that it is detrimental to the tool, and acknowledged this.
I don't know if you're into the whole Internet (YouTube especially) tool-restoration thing but the amount of bad stuff being shown to the community, and lapped up by newbies and the inexperienced, and fanboys, is staggering. This includes horrendously damaging techniques – far worse than you're criticising here – that would horrify the majority here, largely seeking cosmetic improvement over functional gain.
 

ED65

Established Member
Joined
3 Dec 2015
Messages
3,593
Reaction score
0
AJB Temple":mzmbcwql said:
I don't think it matters much.
Yeah, everything works. I'd hope that this was the take-home message for those new to it or uncertain if they should try something else, but I'm not going to fool myself that this was successful this time any more than previous times. It's so hard to get that across when the noise-to-signal ratio in these threads is so high.

MikeG.":mzmbcwql said:
AJB Temple":mzmbcwql said:
.......People overthink it much of the time........
Exactly. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so tedious.
Overthinking it is natural I think, and part of everyone's progression. What I find maddeningly tedious (and I know I'm not the only one) is us having to get into the same repetitive arguments. We all know why. Elephant in the room and all that.
 

Ttrees

Iroko loco!
Joined
18 Nov 2012
Messages
2,126
Reaction score
15
Location
In me workshop
ED65":n4mcfzl5 said:
Ttrees":n4mcfzl5 said:
I beg to differ Trevanion,
The absolute worst of the worst is that plane rehab video.
That should be taken down.
Oh hey hang on a sec, I'll leap to his defence on that one!

Ttrees":n4mcfzl5 said:
I learned the hard way on how to do this right.
ORLY? If it's different from the way I do it how can it be right? </sarcasm>

You see my point I hope.

Ttrees":n4mcfzl5 said:
I wouldn't be so damming if Sellers had removed that video, or at least bothered to realise that it is detrimental to the tool, and acknowledged this.
I don't know if you're into the whole Internet (YouTube especially) tool-restoration thing but the amount of bad stuff being shown to the community, and lapped up by newbies and the inexperienced, and fanboys, is staggering. This includes horrendously damaging techniques – far worse than you're criticising here – that would horrify the majority here, largely seeking cosmetic improvement over functional gain.
I made two videos on the subject as there was no other videos on how to lap a hand plane correctly.
What I mean by lap a hand plane correctly, is achieving a flat surface.
If the abrasive paper is wider than the surface you intend to lap, then you will create a convex surface.
No amount of skill or techniques will change that.
What you see Sellers doing is eliminating the reference area that you need for doing the job.
I have never seen anyone else doing quite the same damage as this.
Achieving a flat surface is the same principle as stop shavings, as in one needs to remove material from the middle
so its resting on each end, and not see sawing with a changing reference point and creating convexitivity.
This becomes very important if you have a plane with a sole which is thin, also extremely important
if you are restoring a plane with an adjustable mouth, and also very important if you're lapping a jointer or try plane.

If you are lapping a plane that is bad, then the sole will end up convex in both axis by the time the blued/permanent marker is removed.
Like I said I learned the hard way.

Believe me or not, after all I don't have a fancy youtube channel with good lighting and equal camera work and 50 years of experience :lol:
But at least my videos are there (through this link) for the folks who are wanting accurate results and not wanting to do damage to their plane.
Folks might remember what I have said, even if they choose to use a larger abrasive ala everyone else on the internet.
They will be aware of what the lap achieves and stop doing it the wrong way before it gets too late.
https://youtu.be/w_ux786ODwg
https://youtu.be/3MlE7Nz3eKg

Surprising how many folks don't know this.
Tom
 

MikeG.

Plodding on.
Joined
24 Aug 2008
Messages
10,162
Reaction score
642
Location
Essex/ Suffolk border
Ttrees":3ug9bf98 said:
.........I made two videos on the subject as there was no other videos on how to lap a hand plane correctly.
What I mean by lap a hand plane correctly, is achieving a flat surface.
If the abrasive paper is wider than the surface you intend to lap, then you will create a convex surface..........
Twaddle. A flat plane of abrasive will not produce a curved surface when something all-but-flat is rubbed on it consistently. The patronising tone of your "I know best" post leaves rather a sour taste, too.

Surprising how many folks don't know this.
They're correct not to know it, because to the tolerances required for plane soles, it's nonsense.

Why are we back on your hobby horse, when this thread is about sharpening?
 

MikeG.

Plodding on.
Joined
24 Aug 2008
Messages
10,162
Reaction score
642
Location
Essex/ Suffolk border
Just make sure to bring "fire" doors into it, and the cap iron setting, so we can have the full extent of your obsessions all over again. And no, there isn't more to sharpening than achieving a sharp blade. Words have meanings, and making your own up means you end up talking to yourself.

Have you ever actually made anything, Tom?
 

woodbloke66

Established Member
Joined
17 Sep 2018
Messages
1,126
Reaction score
0
Location
Salisbury
Ttrees":12jtc04x said:
It might be because there's more to sharpening than achieving a sharp blade Mike. :)
No there isn't; end of story. To agree with what ED65 said above, it's tedious in the extreme to go over and over the same old ground...these 'discussions' have been occurring for years now and similar threads happened with regularity when I first joined UKW ten or more years ago.

A sharp edge is simply the junction between two planes of steel and the finer the 'junction' the sharper the edge. There are a bazillion ways to achieve said junction and one way is as good as the other...the issue is that you have to find the 'way' that works for you, but however you do it, it's not hard - Rob
 

Ttrees

Iroko loco!
Joined
18 Nov 2012
Messages
2,126
Reaction score
15
Location
In me workshop
And they will continue Woodbloke66 :p
Sharp is useless if the profile is not correct.
This is well within the realms of what I would consider appropriate to discuss
on a thread that is titled...easiest blade and chisel sharpening.

There is plenty of folks here that still aren't aware of the close set cap iron, so it's definitely a valid subject to keep discussing.
By that I mean sharpening techniques on getting that perfect camber.
Sharp might be the subject, but it isn't the challenging part.

Tom
 

AndyT

Established Member
Joined
24 Jul 2007
Messages
11,789
Reaction score
175
Location
Bristol
Tom, this thread is long enough now.
If you look at the quality of work shown on here by the likes of Mike and Rob, you can see that they must have learned to get their tools sharp enough.

The OP is a beginner, wondering whether to try abrasive paper or diamond plates, not to hear everything there is to say about sharpening.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but this forum has lost some of its best contributors who got fed up with the repeated long rambles around sharpening, far removed from giving helpful answers to questions put.
 

Latest posts

Top