Dust extraction - some questions

[Selwyn]

Just trying to get my head around things.

I use one of these for the P/T (chip extractor)

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ho ... -extractor

and yes its dusty enough.

I also have one of these which seems to suck up dust and fly it out again

http://reviews.wickes.co.uk/9987-en_gb/ ... eviews.htm

So I thought to get a cyclone and build something but everywhere I look cyclones are not cheap. In fact its nearly cheaper to buy another vac like this

http://beta.wickes.co.uk/Wet+Dry-Vacuum+Blower/p/215735

My question is that I want to finally get a good system for sucking up the stuff from the router table, RAS, table saw, planer, morticer, sander. I'm willing to put some ducting in but when you start looking at blast gates and all the stuff it starts to look expensive.

What should be my plan of action - extract everything to the chip extractor and get some ducting for this and a cyclone for it? Potentially a bit of a fiddle for all machines to ducted in.

Should I concentrate the chip extractor on being dedicated to the planer and table saw via ducting and the rest use a movable vac? I look at some of the extraction ducting kits on axminster and it nearly feels cheaper to buy a vac extractor for fine stuff - but then that's an old fiddle between kit then too.

Any thoughts?

 

[tool-me-up]

Cant say which will suit you best as in an ideal world every machine would have its own dedicated extraction.
Triton make dust collection units for standard vacuums, im not sure if they work on the cyclone or thein separator principle, but either way it should help to keep the dust down.
http://www.tool-me-up.co.uk/dust-collection-bucket-20ltr-dca300-330055-67421-p.asp

 

[Bluekingfisher]

You may have to consider the option of doing it on the cheap or doing it right. Unfortunately there is no real inexpensive way of doing it. That said, the money spent on a proper and effective system will pay dividends. It will last a long time and your lungs and health will benefit greatly (what does a set of lungs cost these days)

I would suggest that for an effective static D/E system you will need an extractor of around 2HP where you can "plumb" your machines into it by means of a fixed ducting network. If the machine you have is around 1 HP you may need to move it to each dust/chip producer each time to use that particular machine ( a right pain) You may get away with a 1.5 HP D/E as a static unit but you will need to keep the ducting runs short and use as little corrugated flexi pipe as possible as the corrugations create resistance and therefore a reduction in air flow.

A cyclone WILL reduce the times you need to empty the dust bag on the D/E ( I have had mine two years and have yet to empty the collector bag on the D/E unit) as my chips decant into a 200L drum which is quick and simple to empty as I use bin liners which pull out easily. A metal mesh rolled cage keeps the bin bag from sucking into the cyclone. It will however, again reduce the air flow of the system. I have a 2HP unit with my 12" planer/thicknesser over 20' away and it handles it no problem at all. I use 110mm soil pipe as the ducting with home made blast gates at each machine. I have mine operated by a remote control key fob which saves me walking back and forth to turn on the extractor, a big plus as far as I am concerned.

The small vac you have highlighted may be ok for smaller dust producing machines such as routers or sanders but for TS and planer they will prove to be inadequate and block very easily.

You may get away with having your chip extractor (if 1 HP) as a means of extracting dually from the TS and planer providing you employ short duct runs and a blast gate to operate each one to dedicate the air flow to each big machine as you use it.

You will find that a cyclone fitted in-conjunction with the vacs will reduce the need to empty the vac as often and increase its efficiency as the vac filter will not clog nearly as quickly. The downside is you will lose a little suction overall albeit at a more consistent rate of flow as the filter does not clog therefore the sustained flow is more regular.

I have a cyclone as part of my smaller shop vac set up (Camvac) where both are mounted onto a wheeled cart so they can be wheeled around together.

I struggled without DE for years so when I installed it two years ago it was by far the best investment I made to my woodworking. The shop now remains clean therefore much more pleasurable to work in.

Good luck

David

 

[nathandavies]

After getting fed up of rubbish dust extraction, I splashed out on an over the top unit which is probably bigger than I need, (it's got the largest motor of everything in the workshop) but I've never regretted it. admittedly ducting parts do cost a bit, but once set up you will wonder what took you so long. it makes life a lot more pleasant, both now and hopefully in the future. places I used for parts are ductstore.co.uk and dustspares.co.uk.

hth

nathan

 

[Selwyn]

Bluekingfisher and Nathan -do you use blast gates by every tool?

 

[wcndave]

I use a http://www.makitauk.com/product/dust-ma ... acuum.html Makita vacuum which has dust bag and filter cylinder.

I then connect this to a "drop box" no cyclone, just goes through a large metal bin I got from Axi (which they don't seem to do any more), and that goes out to the cheaper 2.5" ductwork set, again got from Axi.

TS dust collection is rubbish due to saw design, however from the way the bin fills up when using planer, I would say I have a fairly effective system.

The longest run is 2.5m, and my ductwork goes 5m along one wall. There are then the wrinkly tubes to each machine.

I use blast gates at every machine, without this it just doesn't work.

I then unplug one pipe from vacuum and plug in a smaller one for hand tools such as sanders, which produce fine dust that goes straight into the bag.

I would think if you have a <5-10m run and use blast gates you'll be fine. Getting some sort of separator will save you on dust bags.

I have auto take off as well.

It does cost a little bit, but it is so so worth it.

 

[beech1948]

Selwyn,

I understand the issue of DE stuff costing too much. I have adopted the following approach being starved of time and cash and I'm retired.

1) I use PVC soil pipe and Y's at about 100mm diameter
2) I use a second hand 3hp chip extractor with a down to 3 micron upper bag. I have turned this from a single stage to a two stage system by putting a separator between the DC and the machine. So the DE just provides suck through the separator.
3) I have two DE systems because my workshop is narrow and long. The first is a Record DX4000 with 2 motors sucking through a Thien separator which I made myself from scraps---very low cost. Almost all fines and most chips drop into the separator and never make it into the DE. All this is mounted in a frame with Thien separator below the Record DX4000. The second is a 3HP used device I bought off ebay 7 yrs ago. This works with most of my big machines and used a Cyclone Central see through plastic cyclone (£85--I think) and self assembled.
4) I made my own blast gates---a bit of a learning curve to get right but feasible.
5) I found a few hours making sure and duct taping all the DE pipe joints and unions well worth it.

http://www.jpthien.com/cy.htm

http://www.cyclonecentral.co.uk/

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f32/homemade-blast-gates-33875/

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=152546

Al

 

[Dusty]

Sorry to semi hijack this thread but have followed extraction threads for a while , and reading about the recommended HP for ducted systems . I am planning a static system and have an Axminster ADE800CE , the snail type but it has a very large motor and Fan . It is spec'd at 0.75 KW which I calculate to be 1.0 HP . I have another smaller bag extractor which is smaller yet same HP ... The Very large snail version has a 150mm inlet and outlet , which I would of thought to be ample for a 7 metre system of 100mm . I can not find any info on the net re the extractor unit as it is an old model so can not find any flow rates etc . The fan housing is a good 20" plus in diameter and moves some serious air .

I suppose what I am asking is , would this be ample to do a static system ?? Thanks in advance .

Kind regards Dusty

 

[wcndave]

Size of inlet / outlet is not necessarily related to power or airflow...

 

[Selwyn]

chaps thanks for the advice.

i've been doing a bit of planning and decided the following course of action.

I'm going to move some gear around and have the chip extractor dedicated to the table saw, planer thicknesser and one other item and run it along one side of the wall. This means I can minimise on runs and blast gates etc. and just have two outlets. One for the table saw and p/t when in thicknesser mode connected from a blast gate on the wall via a piece of flexi and another for the planer in planer mode (outlet faces other direction on scheppach) and for probably the bandsaw. I will have a cyclone or something on this and maybe box in the extractor too.

On the otherside of the wall I will have another hvlp extractor connected to some sort of dropbox for most of the dust (I have an old nilfisk industrial hoover) with a 63mm system which can operate the RAS, morticer and sander.

The only one i've not figured yet is the lathe but I do have an airshield.

Any thoughts?

A trawl around ebay and axminster means ducting need not cost too much as I happen to have some 4" metal pipe anyway and so just some Y peices, bends and some blast gates from axminster should do a job.

 

[Selwyn]

I do have one question though - the nilfisk industrial hoover I have doesn't have a tremendous amount of suck despite being two 800w motors.

There are no blocked filters etc. so is there a way of improving the performance of the motors or do they wear over time?

 

[Shrubby]

Have you replaced the filters on the Nilfsik , It has a main body filter gallery (with the shaker) these get tired and wear out allowing more dust through.Then each motor has a polyester needlefelt filter fitted over the bottom - these blind with finer dust and need replacing
you shouldn't need to move a huge volume of air if your extraction is well designed. It's all about capture hood efficiency now, with the best practice using the blades and cutters as fans - it's called tooling induced airflow
Matt