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Dust Extraction Question

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Rich_N

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Hi Folks,

Has anyone used the Axminster Cyclone head with a HPLV dust extractor? If so, what did you use for the bucket/container?

Axminster say it's not suitable for the NVD 750 dust extractor which is 2 x 1200w motors and a flow rate of 5000ltr/m. This is model extractor I have.

I've bought a new table saw and have switched from the 50mm port on the extractor to the 100mm for the saw. This means I can't use the HEPAFlow bags. So, the inside of the drum and the HEPAflow filter (a bag cut in half) gets minging! I'd like to protect my filters.

The spanner in the works is that I have the table saw fitted to the 100mm port with a blast gate and I still run my 32mm hoses connected to 40mm PVC pipe with blast gate for all other machines and tools and this is connected to the front 50mm port.

Does anyone have any Cyclone system advice they could share please.

Thanks
 

DBT85

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The cyclone will probably work, it just won't work as well as it could because the NVD 750 is a HPLV extractor (much suck, less volume of air) as opposed to a HVLP (less suck, large volume of air). Your machine has a claimed 5000l/m (300m3/hr). The type of machine they claim that cyclone is for would be claiming to suck probably 2000m3/hr. Not that it would get close to that either. They lie. Shock.

I look forward to seeing how Andy gets on also!
 

harryc

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Hi Folks,

Has anyone used the Axminster Cyclone head with a HPLV dust extractor? If so, what did you use for the bucket/container?

Axminster say it's not suitable for the NVD 750 dust extractor which is 2 x 1200w motors and a flow rate of 5000ltr/m. This is model extractor I have.

I've bought a new table saw and have switched from the 50mm port on the extractor to the 100mm for the saw. This means I can't use the HEPAFlow bags. So, the inside of the drum and the HEPAflow filter (a bag cut in half) gets minging! I'd like to protect my filters.

The spanner in the works is that I have the table saw fitted to the 100mm port with a blast gate and I still run my 32mm hoses connected to 40mm PVC pipe with blast gate for all other machines and tools and this is connected to the front 50mm port.

Does anyone have any Cyclone system advice they could share please.

Thanks
I have a twin motor camvac for which I have just ordered the Axminster cyclone. this will be the heart of my new new dust extraction system using screwfix 100mm pvc ducting.

I am planning on using a galvanised steel can for the bucket so will let you know if it gets sucked into a plate or otherwise lol.
 

Rich_N

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Peter Parfit is happy with his on the NVD750 though he does say it reduces suction somewhat. I saw his video after posting this.

I really need to come up with an idea for a cyclone setup. One that won't break the bank, I've just spent loads on an Axminster AC254 table saw, and it needs to keep the suction nice and high. The NVD750 connected to the table saw via a 100mm hose works really well, even though it's not supposed to. There is very little dust on the table top and only a small amount inside the table housing. That hose comes off the 100mm port.

There are loads of small cyclones on the market with 50mm inlet/outlet ports, but I'm wondering if that would stifle the suction to the table saw.

I currently run the rest of my dust collection through 40mm PVC push fit pipes with 32mm hoses (as per the Rag & Bone Brown old system). I intend to change that to 63mm apart from my power tool hose which I'll have to step down to 32mm.

If I want to use a cyclone (which I do) It's going to be a bit complex. I'll have to run 100mm to the cylcone, step it down to 50mm, step it back up to 100mm, put a Y splitter in after being stepped back up. I'll then run a 100mm hose to the saw with a blast gate. The other side of the Y will be stepped down to 63mm with a blast gate for the new ducting I'm planning on!

Messy, very messy.

To be honest, if I had the space I'd buy either a Charnwood or Axminster LPHV system for my machines (Table Saw, Band Saw, Router Table, Thicknesser) and use the NVD 750 for the mitre saw and power tools - oh, and to vacuum the floor! But space is at a premium, I simply have no spare room for a large dust unit.

I see that Rutlands sell a 63mm dust separator for £89. Has anyone used it? Is it any good? This is it.

I'm really quite new to all this and it seems that each time I upgrade, I need to buy something else to make the system work again!!!!!!
 

4ndy

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It's a compromise for sure but due to the workshop size I can't house a HVLP setup in such a way that I'd be happy to breath the air, so a NVD750, HEPA module and cyclone is my compromised but hopefully working solution.
The extraction is for a CNC setup for my business primarily cutting baltic birch ply.
I have a VTUFF MINI for tool extraction and an Axminster air filter to remove the finish ruining particles from the air.
 

4ndy

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Stepping up and down pipe sizes kills airflow so to be avoided as much as possible.
The Bill Pentz website is very informative if a little daunting as it's incredibly indepth - but it's a topic that's very complicated and needs to be!
 

DBT85

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I thought I saw Peter using it with a HVLP, but I admit I don't watch all of his videos.

One option with HPLV systems would be to Dyson it and use several 50mm cyclones. The smaller diameter of the cyclone helps keep particle speed up in systems with lower airflow which in turn helps it stick to the outside of the cone and drop to the bucket. The reason they don't suggest using the 100mm cyclone on a HPLV macinhe is that the particles suspended in the air won't have sufficient speed to remain stuck to the side of the cylcone. It'll work, just not as well as its desinged to. A cyclone will always reduce your suck and your flow rate. It's an impediment to the system. It just happens to be an impediment with a good benefit, unlike say, putting 2 hard 90s in your ducting which has no benefit at all. So it might reduce everything by 10%, but becase less chaff makes it to your actual filters, they should operate at higher efficiencies for longer, far longer.

I'll have to run 100mm to the cylcone, step it down to 50mm, step it back up to 100mm
Save yourself some hassle, this will be entirely counter productive. The volume of the air will be wholly determined by the smallest diameter hole you are trying to suck it through, even if only for 10mm.

If you drop it to 50mm anywhere you may as well just keep it at 50 for the rest of the run.
 

Sideways

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Just to ask a dumb question, what are you trying to achieve by adding a cyclone to a NVD750 ?

NVD750 has a decent sized tub and isn't hard to empty so I assume it's not about using bigger collection bags.
NVD750 dual fabric filter is durable and easy to clean so I don't see a reason there.
The 100mm inlet on the NVD750 is set at a tangent to the drum so it creates a simple cyclonic airflow inside the drum that helps a little to drop the big particles. Incidentally, the 50mm inlet bangs straight into the face of the drum which is naff and doesn't have this cyclone effect. Even if connecting a 50mm hose, use a reducer and stuff it into the 100mm rather than the 50mm inlet.
You can still have HEPA filtration using the 100mm inlet. Just do as Numatic suggest and cut a bag open then use the sheet of fabric as a third filter layer with the red and white nylon fabric ones.

Lastly, NVD750 is a little bit of a beast. It has a decent sized can. If you are going to pair it up with a separate cyclone separator, only a few percent of the waste will ever make it through to the NVD750 and it will take you 5 years to fill that bin! If you are going to pair it with a big cyclone + drum, all you need is the smallest, most compact twin motor vacuum you can buy.

I find the NVD750 very usable for what it is, and I know what it can't do for me (and that's extract a planer thicknesser or a leaky old style table saw because it can't and never will move enough air volume) but if I wanted to mess with it, I would make a Thien baffle that fitted onto the top of it's bin then I'd make some sort of small drum for the power head and filters that I could stack on top to keep it all compact. I seriously doubt that it's worth the effort though.

Incidentally, adding a cyclone or a Thien baffle (which is slightly worse) doesn't just knock 10% off your suction, I watched a video of someone doing his best to objectively and accurately measure the pressure drop and it was over 25% drop for a cyclone, more for a Thien baffle.
There is an offset when using a cyclone that less dust makes it through to the extractor filters, so less caking and better airflow for a while, but I've filled many barrels using a cyclone in combo with a commercial grade vacuum cleaner and in a little experiment I carried out one time, I weighed about 160 kilos of waste and found
1. the cyclone captured more than 95% of the waste by volume and weight - awesome !
2. I had to discard a virtually empty vacuum cleaner bag for every 4 or 5 cyclone barrels because the few percent of very fine dust that made it through the cyclone choked the vacuum cleaner bag and killed the airflow. If you had a HEPA filter in the loop especially, you might find the same thing.
 
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Rich_N

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Just to ask a dumb question, what are you trying to achieve by adding a cyclone to a NVD750 ?

NVD750 has a decent sized tub and isn't hard to empty so I assume it's not about using bigger collection bags.
NVD750 dual fabric filter is durable and easy to clean so I don't see a reason there.
The 100mm inlet on the NVD750 is set at a tangent to the drum so it creates a simple cyclonic airflow inside the drum that helps a little to drop the big particles. Incidentally, the 50mm inlet bangs straight into the face of the drum which is naff and doesn't have this cyclone effect. Even if connecting a 50mm hose, use a reducer and stuff it into the 100mm rather than the 50mm inlet.
You can still have HEPA filtration using the 100mm inlet. Just do as Numatic suggest and cut a bag open then use the sheet of fabric as a third filter layer with the red and white nylon fabric ones.
Lastly, NVD750 is a little bit of a beast. It has a decent sized can. If you are going to pair it up with a separate cyclone separator, only a few percent of the waste will ever make it through to the NVD750 and it will take you 5 years to fill that bin! If you are going to pair it with a big cyclone + drum, all you need is the smallest, most compact twin motor vacuum you can buy.
I find the NVD750 very usable for what it is, and I know what it can't do for me (and that's extract a planer thicknesser or a leaky old style table saw because it can't and never will move enough air volume) but if I wanted to mess with it, I would make a Thien baffle that fitted onto the top of it's bin then I'd make some sort of small drum for the power head and filters that I could stack on top to keep it all compact. I seriously doubt that it's worth the effort though.
The reason I was thinking cyclone was to keep the HEPA bag as clear of dust as possible and to make emptying the drum easier. I only switched to the 100mm port last weekend and today got covered in dust, as did the floor, taking the top off and the filters out. I want to avoid that as much as possible, but, I guess (hope) that if I stop using the 50mm port, less dust will slam into the filter and therefore keep me, the floor, and my lungs a bit less dusty 😉.

I've just been down to the garage to see if there is anything I could do to make more space to buy a LPHV extractor, and I just can't see a way to fit it in. I have to share the garage with bike storage, a rack with kitchen stuff and my wife does some leatherwork in there. To say it's crammed is an understatement 😆.

I guess that the most important thing at the moment is to upgrade to 63mm and run it all from the 100mm port to avoid the 50mm splat into the filter bag......and to remember to tap the HEPA bag before I take it out!
 

harryc

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Just to ask a dumb question, what are you trying to achieve by adding a cyclone to a NVD750 ?

NVD750 has a decent sized tub and isn't hard to empty so I assume it's not about using bigger collection bags.
NVD750 dual fabric filter is durable and easy to clean so I don't see a reason there.
The 100mm inlet on the NVD750 is set at a tangent to the drum so it creates a simple cyclonic airflow inside the drum that helps a little to drop the big particles. Incidentally, the 50mm inlet bangs straight into the face of the drum which is naff and doesn't have this cyclone effect. Even if connecting a 50mm hose, use a reducer and stuff it into the 100mm rather than the 50mm inlet.
You can still have HEPA filtration using the 100mm inlet. Just do as Numatic suggest and cut a bag open then use the sheet of fabric as a third filter layer with the red and white nylon fabric ones.

Lastly, NVD750 is a little bit of a beast. It has a decent sized can. If you are going to pair it up with a separate cyclone separator, only a few percent of the waste will ever make it through to the NVD750 and it will take you 5 years to fill that bin! If you are going to pair it with a big cyclone + drum, all you need is the smallest, most compact twin motor vacuum you can buy.

I find the NVD750 very usable for what it is, and I know what it can't do for me (and that's extract a planer thicknesser or a leaky old style table saw because it can't and never will move enough air volume) but if I wanted to mess with it, I would make a Thien baffle that fitted onto the top of it's bin then I'd make some sort of small drum for the power head and filters that I could stack on top to keep it all compact. I seriously doubt that it's worth the effort though.

Incidentally, adding a cyclone or a Thien baffle (which is slightly worse) doesn't just knock 10% off your suction, I watched a video of someone doing his best to objectively and accurately measure the pressure drop and it was over 25% drop for a cyclone, more for a Thien baffle.
There is an offset when using a cyclone that less dust makes it through to the extractor filters, so less caking and better airflow for a while, but I've filled many barrels using a cyclone in combo with a commercial grade vacuum cleaner and in a little experiment I carried out one time, I weighed about 160 kilos of waste and found
1. the cyclone captured more than 95% of the waste by volume and weight - awesome !
2. I had to discard a virtually empty vacuum cleaner bag for every 4 or 5 cyclone barrels because the few percent of very fine dust that made it through the cyclone choked the vacuum cleaner bag and killed the airflow. If you had a HEPA filter in the loop especially, you might find the same thing.
The major benefit of a interceptor is it doesn’t clog up your extractor so you are not constantly cleaning the filter bags to maintain suction.
At least on my camvac, might be different on the axi.
 

4ndy

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First thoughts; quality control is poor on Axminster equipment. More to follow once they've responded.
 

DBT85

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Any update? What is up with the QC?
The problem with axminster qc is that you are the one who has to do it and ask for a replacement. Galling enough without recalling the premium they charge you for that honour. People say they offer great customer service but it's a bloody hassle having to send things back because they don't check their own product.
 

Rich_N

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The problem with axminster qc is that you are the one who has to do it and ask for a replacement. Galling enough without recalling the premium they charge you for that honour. People say they offer great customer service but it's a bloody hassle having to send things back because they don't check their own product.

I've found, in my limited time woodworking, that there are several like that. I had major issues with Triton. I had two duff MOF001 routers and two bowed router table modules for the TWX7 table. The router issue was resolved and I'm on my 3rd which seems to be working. But the Router Table module had to go back for a refund as they had an issue with their supplier. The customer and technical support was utterly brilliant and I can't fault that. But as you say, it shouldn't be for us, the end user, to keep having issues due to some QC problems.

I've been lucky with Axminster so far and everything I've bought has been top notch.
 

4ndy

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Still waiting on the NVD750 so any conclusions on the effectiveness of the setup TBC.
Frustratingly I bought the Cyclone and the trade air filter.
The air filter clunked, clanged and tripped the building electrics.
The Cyclone base plate was welded wonky and the sealant was 8mm away from the gap it was sealing.
Very disappointed but waiting on replacements. Fingers crossed on whether they'll try and kill me too.
 
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