Diamond or ceramic stone?

[No skills]

Hello to you all again,

The last of my cheap multi-sided diamond stones is on the way out (shock), I like diamond sharpening as its fairly mess free and simple. If funds were available I'd probably kit myself out with a set of 3 eze-lap's or dia sharp but that's not going to happen any time soon - so I've ordered a Fallkniven DC521.

To be honest with my grade of wood butchery the Fallkniven should get me to what I'm used to with my edged tools - ie sharp enough for most things but not super. Question is when I want to go the extra mile what should I be using after the Fallkniven? I am thinking about a superfine diamond plate from whoever, or maybe a ceramic stone - I've seen the name Spyderco mentioned here and there but don't know much about the products.

What does the collective think?

I would assume if I wanted to go a touch further after a superfine stone then a strop with some compound would do the trick?


In anticipation...

 

[MIGNAL]

Your Fallkniven is a very fine stone, no? If it is you will only need to strop.
BTW. What grit is it?

 

[G S Haydon]

The Falkniven should do a great job and create a very fine edge. With my limited experience using it and following the instructions provided, the resultant edges were excellent.

 

[No skills]

I'll have to look up the grits on the morning cant remember atm, a review (possibly from here?) said the finer side was more of a medium grit than fine. I'm almost gagging to try it now , how sad

If the superfine isn't needed and I can go straight to a strop with some compound them that's all good.

Still interested to heat about the superfine diamond/ceramic's if anybody has experience..

 

[MIGNAL]

I found some comment online that states it's around 6,000G. You don't need any super fine sharpening stone if that's the case, strop + paste is sufficient.

 

[MartinCox]

I'll start by saying that this is an amateur trying to take a professional route making these comments.

When I buy a cutting tool, I would sharpen the edge to 1000 grit on the Tormek. With Veritas planes, that takes seconds; with others a couple of minutes.

I used then to use Norton Whetstones to get to 4000 grit for the secondary bevel. The result on planing was good.

Watching Rob Cosman showing the difference on finish between 1000 and 16000 grit, I decided to buy a 16000 Shapton ceramic stone from Classic Hand Tools. About £100 so not cheap but not going to break the bank.

So, 4000 whetstone against 16000 ceramic on the secondary. I can feel the difference with the 16000 producing a smoother finish. But is that smoother finish needed; advisable? Possibly not.

On either way, I only top-up the secondary after each use and go back to the Tormek on a periodic basis.

No Skills - I hope that helps. I am p*ssed at you taking the nom-de-guerre which defines my aptitude.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I used the Spyderco ceramic stones, a medium and an ultra-fine, for some years. They work perfectly acceptably. Their advantages are that being very hard, they don't wear (or at any rate, wear very slowly), they are very compact and easy to store, easy to clean (good scrub with warm water, washing-up liquid and a pan-scrub), and can be used at the bench or on site - no need for a seperate sharpening station. The medium gives edges plenty good enough for jack and try plane irons and chopping chisels, and the ultra-fine should satisfy all but the most fastidious smoothing-plane and paring chisel users. The disadvantages are that the medium stone isn't completely flat (it's 'good enough' for practical purposes) and would be the very devil to flatten being so hard, the first cost which is high, and the fact that despite the manufacturer's claims they need some lubricant to prevent a buildup of hard-to-remove clogging - water worked well for me, but I gather some people use oil successfully. The medium cuts less fast than a fine India oilstone, and gives a slightly better edge. I've never used diamond bench stones, so can't compare, I'm afraid.

Another possibility for an ultra-fine stone is the Inigo Jones Dragon's Tongue Welsh slate. I've been using one of these for a couple of years, and it's impressed me. They are quite cheap, and need 'dressing' when received to remove a sort of 'fuzz' (light sanding in water with 400 grit wet-and-dry), but once done are very smooth. They barely 'cut' at all, but polish or burnish edges formed on a medium stone beautifully. The manufacturers reccommend use with water, but I use oil and a technique of only drawing the edge back accross the stone to avoid it digging in, both on the bevel and the flat back. That gives me edges better than I've ever achieved with stropping. It's similar to the ceramic ultra-fine, but if anything seems to give a slightly better edge. For the price, it's the best polishing stone around, in my view.

 

[Monkey Mark]

I used the Spyderco ceramic stones, a medium and an ultra-fine, for some years. They work perfectly acceptably. Their advantages are that being very hard, they don't wear (or at any rate, wear very slowly), they are very compact and easy to store, easy to clean (good scrub with warm water, washing-up liquid and a pan-scrub), and can be used at the bench or on site - no need for a seperate sharpening station. The medium gives edges plenty good enough for jack and try plane irons and chopping chisels, and the ultra-fine should satisfy all but the most fastidious smoothing-plane and paring chisel users. The disadvantages are that the medium stone isn't completely flat (it's 'good enough' for practical purposes) and would be the very devil to flatten being so hard, the first cost which is high, and the fact that despite the manufacturer's claims they need some lubricant to prevent a buildup of hard-to-remove clogging - water worked well for me, but I gather some people use oil successfully. The medium cuts less fast than a fine India oilstone, and gives a slightly better edge. I've never used diamond bench stones, so can't compare, I'm afraid.

Another possibility for an ultra-fine stone is the Inigo Jones Dragon's Tongue Welsh slate. I've been using one of these for a couple of years, and it's impressed me. They are quite cheap, and need 'dressing' when received to remove a sort of 'fuzz' (light sanding in water with 400 grit wet-and-dry), but once done are very smooth. They barely 'cut' at all, but polish or burnish edges formed on a medium stone beautifully. The manufacturers reccommend use with water, but I use oil and a technique of only drawing the edge back accross the stone to avoid it digging in, both on the bevel and the flat back. That gives me edges better than I've ever achieved with stropping. It's similar to the ceramic ultra-fine, but if anything seems to give a slightly better edge. For the price, it's the best polishing stone around, in my view.

Is this the right thing for the slate you mentioned?

If so, that's ridiculously cheap.

 

[lurcher]

welsh slate is a very good stone to give a very fine edge .
look around the boot sales i got a charnley forest stone for a £1.00 in a fin mahogany box so there is no need to break the bank just keep your eyes peeled.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I used the Spyderco ceramic stones, a medium and an ultra-fine, for some years. They work perfectly acceptably. Their advantages are that being very hard, they don't wear (or at any rate, wear very slowly), they are very compact and easy to store, easy to clean (good scrub with warm water, washing-up liquid and a pan-scrub), and can be used at the bench or on site - no need for a seperate sharpening station. The medium gives edges plenty good enough for jack and try plane irons and chopping chisels, and the ultra-fine should satisfy all but the most fastidious smoothing-plane and paring chisel users. The disadvantages are that the medium stone isn't completely flat (it's 'good enough' for practical purposes) and would be the very devil to flatten being so hard, the first cost which is high, and the fact that despite the manufacturer's claims they need some lubricant to prevent a buildup of hard-to-remove clogging - water worked well for me, but I gather some people use oil successfully. The medium cuts less fast than a fine India oilstone, and gives a slightly better edge. I've never used diamond bench stones, so can't compare, I'm afraid.

Another possibility for an ultra-fine stone is the Inigo Jones Dragon's Tongue Welsh slate. I've been using one of these for a couple of years, and it's impressed me. They are quite cheap, and need 'dressing' when received to remove a sort of 'fuzz' (light sanding in water with 400 grit wet-and-dry), but once done are very smooth. They barely 'cut' at all, but polish or burnish edges formed on a medium stone beautifully. The manufacturers reccommend use with water, but I use oil and a technique of only drawing the edge back accross the stone to avoid it digging in, both on the bevel and the flat back. That gives me edges better than I've ever achieved with stropping. It's similar to the ceramic ultra-fine, but if anything seems to give a slightly better edge. For the price, it's the best polishing stone around, in my view.

Is this the right thing for the slate you mentioned?

If so, that's ridiculously cheap.

This is the one - http://www.inigojones.co.uk/search.php?searchid=57 - and yes, it is cheap. The postage and packing could well be more than the stone's cost. Worth it though, I've found.

Also, Lurcher is quite right about there being quite a few about secondhand. They crop up on Ebay, too; Llyn Melynllyn being one brand to look out for.

 

[jimi43]

Hi NS

Yes..the review you saw was indeed on here...

CLICK CLICK

..which I wrote well over a year ago now.

I am happy to report that the "stone" is still going strong...is used every day and used in conjunction with two other stones is the only sharpening system I need.

For primary grinding and reshaping work...the surprise for me was a Rexon WG180A (with modified fence) found at a bootfair for a tenner...but once you get past that "shaping" stage....then the Dia-Sharp XXC does any refining...followed by the Fällniven which is "medium" cut one side and "fine" the other....and finally honing is done either on a Spiderco fine ceramic or Belgian coticule depending on how my mood takes me.

Some steels love being tickled with a coticule..other more stubborn ones need the Spiderco...

Hope this helps...only my opinion mind...there are zillions of other ways of doing the same thing....but since you asked about the Fällniven specifically...I thought I would give you my experience with this fine sharpening plate.

Jimi

 

[Monkey Mark]

I used the Spyderco ceramic stones, a medium and an ultra-fine, for some years. They work perfectly acceptably. Their advantages are that being very hard, they don't wear (or at any rate, wear very slowly), they are very compact and easy to store, easy to clean (good scrub with warm water, washing-up liquid and a pan-scrub), and can be used at the bench or on site - no need for a seperate sharpening station. The medium gives edges plenty good enough for jack and try plane irons and chopping chisels, and the ultra-fine should satisfy all but the most fastidious smoothing-plane and paring chisel users. The disadvantages are that the medium stone isn't completely flat (it's 'good enough' for practical purposes) and would be the very devil to flatten being so hard, the first cost which is high, and the fact that despite the manufacturer's claims they need some lubricant to prevent a buildup of hard-to-remove clogging - water worked well for me, but I gather some people use oil successfully. The medium cuts less fast than a fine India oilstone, and gives a slightly better edge. I've never used diamond bench stones, so can't compare, I'm afraid.

Another possibility for an ultra-fine stone is the Inigo Jones Dragon's Tongue Welsh slate. I've been using one of these for a couple of years, and it's impressed me. They are quite cheap, and need 'dressing' when received to remove a sort of 'fuzz' (light sanding in water with 400 grit wet-and-dry), but once done are very smooth. They barely 'cut' at all, but polish or burnish edges formed on a medium stone beautifully. The manufacturers reccommend use with water, but I use oil and a technique of only drawing the edge back accross the stone to avoid it digging in, both on the bevel and the flat back. That gives me edges better than I've ever achieved with stropping. It's similar to the ceramic ultra-fine, but if anything seems to give a slightly better edge. For the price, it's the best polishing stone around, in my view.

Is this the right thing for the slate you mentioned?

If so, that's ridiculously cheap.

This is the one - http://www.inigojones.co.uk/search.php?searchid=57 - and yes, it is cheap. The postage and packing could well be more than the stone's cost. Worth it though, I've found.

Also, Lurcher is quite right about there being quite a few about secondhand. They crop up on Ebay, too; Llyn Melynllyn being one brand to look out for.

Yes that's the one I meant to link to :roll:

The postage was about the same yes, so I may by a couple instead.

 

[John15]

I bought one about a year ago. It was rated at 7000 grit and was £13 from memory.

John

 

[JohnPW]

... so I may by a couple instead.

I've been looking at which polishing stone to get, but whilst the slate price looks tempting, I probably won't buy as I don't agree with their pricing.

The price is £7 for the stone and £7 for P&P, for each stone! Eg if you buy 3 stones, it's £21 for the 3 stones and £21 for P&P!

Cost of sending a "small parcel" (up to 2kg and big enough for several stones) by Royal Mail is £2.80 for 2nd class, and £3.90 2nd class signed for.

 

[AndyT]

... so I may by a couple instead.

I've been looking at which polishing stone to get, but whilst the slate price looks tempting, I probably won't buy as I don't agree with their pricing.

The price is £7 for the stone and £7 for P&P, for each stone! Eg if you buy 3 stones, it's £21 for the 3 stones and £21 for P&P!

Cost of sending a "small parcel" (up to 2kg and big enough for several stones) by Royal Mail is £2.80 for 2nd class, and £3.90 2nd class signed for.

Have you tried contacting them and asking? I don't expect they were intending to put people off ordering more than one, or rubbing their hands in glee at making loads of money from excess p&p.

It just looks to me like they are a small business whose website designer did a less than perfect job of calculating all the possible combinations of items which could be combined into one parcel or not, and the real world delivery options, trading into many countries.

 

[Monkey Mark]

... so I may by a couple instead.

I've been looking at which polishing stone to get, but whilst the slate price looks tempting, I probably won't buy as I don't agree with their pricing.

The price is £7 for the stone and £7 for P&P, for each stone! Eg if you buy 3 stones, it's £21 for the 3 stones and £21 for P&P!

Cost of sending a "small parcel" (up to 2kg and big enough for several stones) by Royal Mail is £2.80 for 2nd class, and £3.90 2nd class signed for.

Ah, I hadn't realised that. Presumed postage may go up but not by that much.

 

[No skills]

People of the forum, thank you.

My Fallkniven is at my postal address waiting for me Wont have it for a few days but I'm looking forward to using it (the shame ).

I will wait until I've butchered - sorry sharpened a few edges before I make a decision on which finishing 'stone' to get (if any), diamond is my favourite but I'm tempted to try ceramic for experience - the slate is very interesting and I may just get one for the fun of it.

Jim, I like the horizontal grinders quite a bit but finding one for a reasonable price is hit and miss - have you seen the price of the Makita equivalent? :shock: I may rig up something similar one day, but that's another project for the list.

I will update my findings soon.

 

[JimB]

Just a couple of comments on Spyderco which I mostly use.
I use water with some washing up liquid in it to help prevent build-up. I just top up the bottle after my wife's finished with it.
Now and then I've soaked them overnight in vinegar to remove build-up.

 

[jimi43]

Just a couple of comments on Spyderco which I mostly use.
I use water with some washing up liquid in it to help prevent build-up. I just top up the bottle after my wife's finished with it.
Now and then I've soaked them overnight in vinegar to remove build-up.

Yes..on the XXF ones including the metal backed Dia-Sharp extra fine...I use water with a spot of washing liquid too....for the very same reason. The rest are fine dry..just blow the dust away outside.