Degree?

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Digit":1mctrpa9 said:
Was this NHS doctor? Did you report it?

It was, yes she did. The health authority claimed that he had the right to treat whom so ever he wished, or not!

......

Roy.

Great. So it's perfectly OK to discriminate if your religion is Islam but if you are a Christian and object to renting out a B&B room to a gay couple you get taken to court. Welcome to the country of double-standards and it makes me thoroughly sick that we pander to one religion and not another. Why the hell do we bend over backwards to accommodate Islam?
 
We have a doctor down at our local surgery that is a god botherer (of the Christian flavour I believe). She has posters up ont the wall of her office which stop just a hairs breadth short of outright saying: your ill because you sinned, god will fix you. Fortunately I've never had to meet this doctor as I don't think we would get on.

While I was in hospital earlier this year someone from the hospital chapel visited the ward and decided to try to convert me to Christianity because I was a non-believer. I at least got an apology for that.

The NHS are playing a dangerous game by allowing doctors to choose patients like that. What if they end up with a doctor that will only treat one ethnic group? Can you imagine the outcry if a doctor said they would only treat white people?
 
Pvt_Ryan":12x8k3qc said:
#1, I suspect the relevance is the biology which is referenced in the article and Darwinism is pretty important for biology in fact it is pretty much key to many concepts.
#2, Don't know about you but I'd rather have a doctor who gets A*s in Biology and fails RE rather than the other way around. Call me old fashioned but I would kinda like the guy doing the operation to know where everything is instead of relying on 'GOD' to guide his hands.

#2 - A in Biology & F in RE, I'm with you on that one.
#1 - I'm missing something here. Rather than take the headline and assume it confer oodles of knowledge. What relevance does Darwinism have to Human Biology and specifically that relating to a Doctor? Or to be exact - what relevance does -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Origin_of_Species

have to being a medic? Because your surgeon could be awesome, and not know a jot about Darwin and his theories and still be Agnostic\Atheist. Darwin's theories on the origin of the species have their place, but not having a clue on the origin of the species - does it make a poorer medic?

Dibs
 
The origin of species is a fantastic piece of work but our understanding of evolution has gone far beyond what is covered in that book. The basic idea that Darwin came up with is still held to be correct but we've discovered that evolution is much more complex than was first thought.

As for the question, what does evolution have to do with medicine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_medicine. A quick Google for evolution in medicine also turns up a stack of information.

If a doctor doesn't believe in or understand evolution they lack an understanding of why bacteria develop resistance to antibiotics. From the human races point of view that's seriously bad as they will keep prescribing medicines in such as way as to encourage resistance. For this reason alone I would avoid employing doctors that don't believe in evolution.
 
If he doesn't know about Darwin that's a huge hole in his education and you'd have to ask what else is missing.
If he is a creationist then he's a nutter and who knows what other cracked ideas he might have about other stuff?
 
wobblycogs":1lq35w8g said:
As for the question, what does evolution have to do with medicine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_medicine. A quick Google for evolution in medicine also turns up a stack of information.
Ta - will save the link and have a read.

wobblycogs":1lq35w8g said:
If a doctor doesn't believe in or understand evolution they lack an understanding of why bacteria develop resistance to antibiotics. From the human races point of view that's seriously bad as they will keep prescribing medicines in such as way as to encourage resistance. For this reason alone I would avoid employing doctors that don't believe in evolution.
Good point. Like you said in your opening paragraph - evolution has gone beyond what was written by Darwin in his paper. Origin of the species might not be here nor there, but the sort of stuff you mention, would certainly be worth\necessary studying.

Dibs
 
Digit":2l1zf2fv said:
Was this NHS doctor? Did you report it?

It was, yes she did. The health authority claimed that he had the right to treat whom so ever he wished, or not!

Roy.

Without wishing to derail the thread.
Interesting. So if I was to be treated by a Black doctor and said no I want a White doctor, would I get arrested for being a racist or could I argue I have the right to be treated by whom so ever I wish?

(Would like to point out above is an exmple only and not something I would do (well for reasons of colour or religion, I am a bigger believer in competancy).


@Dibs-h, wobblycogs beat me to it.

Ryan
 
I personally am less concerned with students failing to attend a given series of lectures than with the apparent fact that they can still graduate! If you don't like the course don't take it!
A bit like studying engineering and ignoring Boyle's Law 'cos you don't like it, and in any case, how many of these students know enough about evolution to make a valid judgement if they haven't studied it.
The closed mind again.

Roy.
 
Ah, the problem there Roy is that the kids attending university now aren't students any more they are customers. It's pretty hard to say "Sorry, you don't get a degree" to someone who has just shelled out around £30k.

Even when I was at Uni 'bout 15 years ago (just when loans were starting to come in) there was a massive effort to make sure everyone passed. Only the truly terrible students that never turned up were asked to leave after the first year. I swear there were people who graduated our course that wouldn't know which end of a Bunsen burner to light!

What I find really scary though is that I doubt it's any different in any subject, certainly everywhere I've looked it's like this. That means there are people graduating from medical school that really shouldn't have or only just scraped though. I wonder what happens to them? I suspect a lot end up as GP's as I get the impression that GP's are the less prestigious end of the doctors career spectrum.
 
It's certainly well paid but if you want really big money you need to become a surgeon it would appear. My wife works with one and apparently he gets paid a very great deal.
 
WC, you are obviously, from past posts, a chap with an interest and knowlesge of science in its broadest terms, what horrifies me is the closed mind that some people demonstrate.
I like to hear both sides of a debate, hence my disgust at the Guardian's treatment that I mentioned earlier. How can you reject Darwin, or anything else without some knowledge of the subject? Science only advances because people ask questions, sometimes very basic ones, and that is not possible without some understanding of the subject.
Those Islamists and Christian fundies automatically exclude themselves from certain forms of research etc by their closed minds, so Creation is correct and Darwin was wrong, my argument to them would be simple, prove it!

Roy.
 
Well the Mail article talked about Biology degrees after the medicine headline.

Steve Jones "questioned why such students would want to study biology at all when it obviously conflicts with their beliefs" and I guess I'm with him on that one.

I don't think that it's unreasonable to have evolution lectures on a Biology course and I would also think that evolution has a place in human biology too. So, I'm not at all convinced it'd be a waste of time as part of a medicine degree. I learnt all sorts of stuff on my degree course that I have never used since graduation but was it a waste of time - I don't really think so.

But the bottom line surely is that the end of degree course exams will present something of a problem for these folks and their lecturers. Religious dogma or lecturer's expectations? I know which one I should like to see prevail.

As a parent of someone at university I have been vehemently anti tuition fees but perhaps there is some rationale after all ;-)

Jon
 
I learnt all sorts of stuff on my degree course that I have never used since graduation but was it a waste of time - I don't really think so.

+1

Roy.
 
I Know a lad who has a degree in agriculture and landscape gardening

After 2 years he managed to get a placement

in B & Q Gardening department

I know several farmers , who now don't do any farming its all contracted out , Plowing seeding harvesting the lot :shock:
 
So how much are GPs on these days?
If they're all like mine they certainly don't seem to put too much effort in. At appointments she'll rarely do any actual examination, just sits and types on to her computer; as for home visits, forget it, even if you thought you were dying she'd probably just tell you to ring an ambulance.
Drives a nice Merc though.
 
Oh Dear, what a lot of mis-information and confusion! I work in a medical school as a Statistical Geneticist and Senior Lecturer and do indeed teach Darwinian theroy (and lots else besides) to medical students and biomedical science students. As to why this is useful, let me outline the course and perhaps that will help. The 5 year MBBS course focuses the first two years on basic science and life science with a small element of clinical observation and shadowing. The final 3 years are then predominantly clinically based with increasing elements of 'doing' rather than 'observing' as the students progress. As to why Darwinian evolution is useful - its all part of underlying biology. Its useful to know about gene expression, about familial inheritance of disease, about the genetic basis of disease and how transmission of mutations from one generation to the next can transmit conditions and risk of disease to offspring. Medicine is not all about 'see disease, treat disease with drug y'. The vast majority is advising on risks, answering patient questions about their treatment, condition or risk to their family and dependants. Medicine is underpinned by knowing WHY and HOW, not just knowing 'see disease X, give Drug Y'. I am sure you would all want your GP to to know why he was giving you the drug he is giving you, not just because some book said so? I am sure you all ask your GP advice about the ailment you have gone to him with, and do not expect him to say 'no idea, I just give drug y becaue the book tells me to'. As pharmacogenetics becomes viable (prescribing drugs in response to your genes effectively) your doctor will need to understand even more about genetics, and drug interactions with genes. Darwininan evolution suffers from being caught up in religious debate, but as a scientific hypothesis its still the best explanation for understanding familial genetics that we have today and no exceptions to it have yet been found that I am aware of (ie no evidence for creationism or intelligent design).

As for whether students today are worth the degrees they get - I can only speak for the courses I lecture on - Medicine and Biomedical Science. We routinely fail students on our courses. We have a particularly high hurdle at the end of year 2 prior to clinical practice - students who do not know the underlying theory don't even get chance to put it into practice. What is 9k per year in student fees compared to the reputational hit of putting out poorly performing doctors? We would be shut down very quickly and rightly so.

Regarding GPs and the 'scale' of medical careers, most students do not specialise to any great degree at University, only doing so after they have left us. There is a continual cycle of learning and training through what used to be called house officer, senior house officer, registrar, specialist registrar and then consultant. (these grades are renamed every few years depending on numerous reviews but these are the most well known classifications). Consultant level posts typically come at the age of 35ish, and attract a base salary in the region of 75k. Private practice to any great degree is limited prior to this, so the big money comes from this age onwards. Different specialties have different levels of private practice, and therefore income. Surgery is high, plastic surgery very high. If people are willing to pay then doctors will be willing to treat privately. You are paying to be seen quickly and in nicer surroundings than the NHS may afford you, or for procedures that may not be avialable on the NHS. You may as well argue that bespoke furniture makers shouldn't get paid any more than a site joiner if you feel medics that offer private practice make too much money from it - both will charge what the market will bear.

Steve
 
Thank you for that Steve, most useful.

or that you did too? ;-)

Me, me, me! But then I'm only 71 so I may yet use some of it! :lol:

Roy.
 
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