Dealing with Builders Merchants

[Mark A]

Hi chaps,

After what felt like 17 months we eventually found a house which ticks most of our boxes - rural location, no neighbours (yippee!), loads of potential and in need of a comfortable amount of work.

I've never really liked or trusted builders merchants but appreciate they're a necessary evil, and we're now at the stage where we should start thinking about suppliers for materials.

I've read trade accounts for glorified DIYers like us are nowhere near as discounted as they could be, so how do I get the very best price possible?

If it makes any difference we'll probably buy a cheap terraced house or maybe a holiday let after this, so it's not just a one-off.

Cheers,
Mark

 

[AJB Temple]

Don't tell them you are a DIYer
Use a business name for all dealings - preferably VAT registered
Indicate that you will be a regular buyer
Try to do al at least a few big orders early on
Ring or email in advance for best prices - ask for better, always negotiate
Make friends with shop staff
Look, act and talk like a tradesman business owner when you go in

 

[AJB Temple]

By the way - setting up a company costs under £20 and often they come with basic (very basic) business bank account deals. You can sort out a letter heading with logo etc on desk top publishing in no time. Use a business email address - the domain for a couple of years will also cost very little.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Hi,

A few suggestions spring to mind from my experience as a one-man-band:

1) A merchant can only pass on to you some of the discount that his buying team have negotiated/achieved with a given supplier. The implication of this is that you need to try and find out is which are their 'preferred suppliers' for particular lines of product (easy enough to do by asking or just wandering round looking at their stock). For example, they may be getting 55% off list price for plastic drainage from one supplier e.g. Osma but only 40% off list with another e.g. Marley. So - it matters which supplier you specify as to how much discount you can hope to share with the merchant. Of course much stuff is generic (supplier doesn't matter), but often as not you do need to be specific e.g. to match existing materials etc. This could be a reason to use more than one merchant.

2) Most merchants will have a "rep" for the local area - who will usually deal with local developers, local authorities etc. The rep will usually be rewarded, in some degree, based on sales volume - they will very likely be prepared to talk to you if you explain that you're in the market for one (and possibly more in future) "house-worths" of materials. If you can agree with them up front, in writing, that you will get X% of list on certain lines and Y% on others, it makes it easy to avoid complicated haggles at the sales counter (with people who may not be empowered/motivated to share discount with you in the same way). I haven't found it necessary to 'pretend' to be a business entity. The building trade has a lot of sole traders. It's easier to agree a deal if you're not looking for financial credit i.e. if you can 'pay-as-you-go' (getting your credit elsewhere if necessary).

3) I'd try and keep things simple and recognise the 80-20 rule. Most of the cost will be driven by a relatively small set of key items e.g. bricks/blocks, slates/tiles, insulation material etc. and these are the areas that it's worth expending effort on.

4) Don't disregard the internet as an alternative source of some categories of material - many traditional merchants can't compete effectively in some areas (e.g. I find it easier to buy things like ironmongery, electrics, lighting, plumbing etc. online with better choice and prices online).

Cheers, W2S

 

[RobinBHM]

I agree with W2S, dont buy small items like dpc, dpm, rain water goods etc from a builders merchants shop, these items are often overpriced. If you do buy, be armed with some internet research for pricing. Places like toolstation have good prices on some items. I find their underground drainage works well and is well priced. These small items can add up to a lot of money so its worth checking. Its easy to chase around and get the best prices for basics like sand, studwork etc and pay over the top for the 'in the shop' items.

On the other hand theres a limit how much it is worth checking prices, taking an hour to save 50p isnt worthwhile.

I think a cash account can work just as well as a trade account, the merchants wont mind as it is not costing them any credit. It doesnt make sense to set up a business name just to try and get trade prices. Better to ring around the merchants, place your order with one and get them to price match. To sensible though, if you are buying 1 length of timber, dont expect to get the 1000 metre rate.

Some products like celetex can be cheaper if you buy equivalent such as ecotherm.

 

[Mark A]

Hi chaps,

Thanks for the advise, it's much appreciated.

AJB Temple - we already own a VAT-registered business, albeit in a different sector (transport and removals), so setting up a business name for dealing with all aspects of the renovation shouldn't be a problem.

W2S & Robin - I've been checking out online suppliers and auctions and think that could be the way to go. I can pick up materials locally, and arranging collection and delivery from further afield is cheap and easy for us.

Cheers,
Mark

 

[blackrodd]

Seeing rainwater and plastic goods mentioned, Wickes take some beating for these plastics and their cement, plaster and big bag stuff is also very competative as is their plasterboards and sheet material, and I'm told that you can get a bulk discount too based on the quantity bought per month.
If you're doing a project, you will be able to assess the materials and quantity needed for completion, armed with this would get any merchant staff interested in being you're favoured supplier, and either 60, or 90 days credit can be useful for cashflow as don't forget on these bigger jobs as a developer, we only get paid once or twice a year!
Rodders

 

[flying haggis]

builders merchants annoy me as they seem to be the only place now that gives discounts on a whim. when you go to a supermarket you pay the same as the next person in the queue but not in a builders merchants. at least with wickes /toolstation etc they have a published price list/catalogue

 

[Water-Mark]

I'd agree with the previous post on "random discounting", i prefer to know my costs when pricing jobs even if i pay a little more for the privilege.

My experience of these things is that everyone exaggerates, trades generally don't like diyers and so tell them they're getting fantastic discounts on materials to make the savings you think your making seem smaller.

The merchant seems to want people who can't have discount believe the trade enjoys prices seemingly beyond what most shops can buy wholesale.

Ask yourself how much mark up do you think there is?

I don't know anybody who gets anything like 20%+ off any order worth less than £20,000 and even then a lot of this comes in the form of buying discontinued or ex display stock.
It's difficult to know what you're really getting when you never know what the full price was to begin with.

Be careful not to push for something that doesn't actually exist.

 

[Bm101]

That's nothing on Kitchen/bathroom suppliers. Fitted a new kitchen in the old place. Went to Howdens. They have 2 catalogues. One for fitters, one for buyers. 40% price difference (if memory serves).
So the fact I have chippies as mates with accounts there saved me nearly 50% at least on catalogue price. Have a good idea what you're talking about. ALWAYS barter. Even at trade price I knocked money off the deal and effectively got a much better kitchen for a huge 'discount' even on the discount they were willing to offer. Like Car Dealers they will always smudge margins to keep a sale.
Most clients assume a average price seen on tv or wherever. Fitter buys at 40% maybe discount, passes on some discount. Everybody's happy. Right? Especially the supplier. Always haggle. Always.
Don't forget the guys and girls who work at the likes of Jewsons or Howdens or your local builders merchants..... they aint fitters, or chippies or tradesmen (or Women! Yes Stan...) They mostly don't have the real experience of the handle end of a tool. They work in a shop. Don't be intimidated.
Knowledge is power.
Having said all that, if you can find a local small scale but excellent building supplier they can be worth their weight in gold on advice alone.

 

[sitefive]

Makes me sick as well that there are no clear prices on anything, and you are being quoted just by your face... And People tell themselves that this is normal.. No it's not!

 

[Monkey Mark]

builders merchants annoy me as they seem to be the only place now that gives discounts on a whim. when you go to a supermarket you pay the same as the next person in the queue but not in a builders merchants. at least with wickes /toolstation etc they have a published price list/catalogue

This annoys me too.
We have a builders merchant very close to where I work. We don't put too many orders through as we only do construction a few times a year, but when we do order it's usually a pretty big order. And it's usually me that arranges the orders.

I went in to order bricks for myself. The price was silly. I pointed out that they give much better discount when I order through work, mentioning how much business I've sent their way to which the basically said tough s##t.
As I left, I let them know I'd no longer order with them. A few months later a rep from there came round. I mentioned what had happened, he seemed very embarrassed. Said he would give a discount next time. Wasn't happy when I told him there wouldn't be a next time for myself or the company.

On a side note. Another merchants know we do training so gives us a good discount. On steel conduit the discount is 97%, must be way less than cost.

 

[artie]

I buy lots from the local builders merchant, but not as much as I used to.

I have to negotiate on every single item. I used to buy T&G weatherboard 3000+ meters at a time, till they decided that wasn't bulk. Then when I found a supplier 60 miles away who would deliver it cheaper They discovered they could match his price.

You can guess my answer. I have tried to negotiate a % discount but they will have none of it. So it's like buying a used car every time I need something.

 

[Graham Orm]

Chat with the guys every time you go in, get on first name basis, especially with the manager. Quote better prices from their competition. Works for me.

 

[blackrodd]

Chat with the guys every time you go in, get on first name basis, especially with the manager. Quote better prices from their competition. Works for me.

+1 For the above, Always worked for me too!
Rodders

 

[Lons]

I've dealt with builders merchants for about 20 years and never had a problem with discounts. As a one man band I haven't placed huge orders though the purchases have been regular and worthwhile. I got to know the staff and negotiated decent prices across a wide range of products I expected to use and the assistant manager of the Jewsons branch I use listed them on my account so I can buy at the same rate from whichever branch and any quantity. A few minutes getting to know them and that includes the warehouse guys and drivers and they'll remember your name every time you walk in.

They are good discounts and although I might save a couple of quid somewhere else it would cost me time so not worth it. If I did find appreciable differences then they will always look at it and do their best to be more competitive and should I want items I don't usually order then I email or ring and get a prompt reply on price and availability. They won't be cheapest for everything so if you want say electrics, go to a wholesaler or Toolstation but remember to compare like for like as some of the stuff is cheap and nasty.

It's all about building a relationship and that goes for general shopping as well. Treat the staff rudely and they won't be motivated to give good service, and why the hell should they, they're human after all and none of us like to be on the receiving end of some impolite pr**ck. I've been known to berate a rude customer who is being unreasonable and when a branch manager would have thrown out any who were rude to my staff.

Nothing wrong either imho for discounts based on volume purchases. Every sale has a cost penalty over and above that of the item and the cost of serving a diyer at a sales counter is higher in terms of staff time expended on what is usually a small profit in £s. I stopped supplying retail for exactly that reason as I could make a lot more money supplying one order of several £1000 at 30% discount than maybe a retail £50 or £100 at full price as the retail order usually took far too long anyway. I never did come across any diyer who didn't ask for trade anyway. They kept my staff away from the phone at a risk of upsetting major customers who were the life blood of the business. Small retail orders don't pay the overheads.

Bob

 

[blackrodd]

I've dealt with builders merchants for about 20 years and never had a problem with discounts. As a one man band I haven't placed huge orders though the purchases have been regular and worthwhile. I got to know the staff and negotiated decent prices across a wide range of products I expected to use and the assistant manager of the Jewsons branch I use listed them on my account so I can buy at the same rate from whichever branch and any quantity. A few minutes getting to know them and that includes the warehouse guys and drivers and they'll remember your name every time you walk in.

They are good discounts and although I might save a couple of quid somewhere else it would cost me time so not worth it. If I did find appreciable differences then they will always look at it and do their best to be more competitive and should I want items I don't usually order then I email or ring and get a prompt reply on price and availability. They won't be cheapest for everything so if you want say electrics, go to a wholesaler or Toolstation but remember to compare like for like as some of the stuff is cheap and nasty.

It's all about building a relationship and that goes for general shopping as well. Treat the staff rudely and they won't be motivated to give good service, and why the hell should they, they're human after all and none of us like to be on the receiving end of some impolite pr**ck. I've been known to berate a rude customer who is being unreasonable and when a branch manager would have thrown out any who were rude to my staff.

Nothing wrong either imho for discounts based on volume purchases. Every sale has a cost penalty over and above that of the item and the cost of serving a diyer at a sales counter is higher in terms of staff time expended on what is usually a small profit in £s. I stopped supplying retail for exactly that reason as I could make a lot more money supplying one order of several £1000 at 30% discount than maybe a retail £50 or £100 at full price as the retail order usually took far too long anyway. I never did come across any diyer who didn't ask for trade anyway. They kept my staff away from the phone at a risk of upsetting major customers who were the life blood of the business. Small retail orders don't pay the overheads.

Bob

Well said, I agree 100%, There's Rarely a bad buying experiance withany of our 4 local merchants.
Rodders

 

[rafezetter]

builders merchants annoy me as they seem to be the only place now that gives discounts on a whim. when you go to a supermarket you pay the same as the next person in the queue but not in a builders merchants. at least with wickes /toolstation etc they have a published price list/catalogue

Having worked in two builders merchants and a couple of DIY sheds I can say that the reason why you are getting a different version of prices to another is volume of sales, but not just volume of sales that day, but over months and years, even decades. I know this is an obvious answer but in 99% of cases it's still the truth.

Even a sale of several thousand isn't going to generate a massive discount if it looks like it'll probably be a one off - and beleive me they can usually tell. The advice of making some big sales early on is good, but be careful how that pans out - many merchants may give you decent discounts now because it looks like you could be a good customer, but if they are reduced later on, they will slide the discounts accordingly, and maybe a tad more to make up for the higher discount you got on the big stuff.

One of the ways around this - or at least give you a fighting chance is to make sure you keep all the receipts, and if you are going back for more of the same, take an old receipt of the same purchase with you, they will be hard pressed to slide a discount on you if you wave an old sale in their faces.

The only other 2 bits of advice I could give having been on the other side is be nice to the staff, find out who's been there a while and build a rapport - at my old place one of the regulars gave everyone a tin of quality street at xmas - only £40 to him, but you can bet he saved more than that with "nudged" prices. By nudged I mean some places will allow a bit of extra leeway on discounts for "the nice customers" - ours did and I cetainly gave an extra few percent here and there, and others did too.

The last bit is go in bold, act as though you are expecting the proper trade discount rates (not just asking for them), and do a bit of homework - ask any tradesmen you know what sort of prices they pay, some won't mind and it'll give you a ballpark and then if the discounts offered are a bit short of that, try the old "I was recommended to come here as my last place was taking the mick - I was told you guys would be straight, that's not much different from my last place and they are closer to me, so what's going to make me come here?" it's all part of the game and it'll be expected to some extent, and if they don't play. Walk out and find one that will for two reasons, you're more likely to get a bit better prices and a better service to go with it. The ones that play the game value their customers as people, the ones that don't, well it'll end badly one way or another, and usually for you with a botched order / delivery time / day / at that crucial time... and they won't give two streaks of p..s to fix it to suit you.

Of course that only really works with independants and smaller chains of maybe a dozen or so outlets, anything bigger and you're SoL.

 

[Lons]

+1 for Rafezetter

The only bit I don't totally agree with is

Of course that only really works with independants and smaller chains of maybe a dozen or so outlets, anything bigger and you're SoL.

I've used a number of builders merchants including the smaller ones and the best over 20 years has been a Jewsons ( wasn't owned by them at first ). The reason for this is very definitely because I built a relationship with the staff, I get the best discounts they can offer me within reason and I know that as I regularly check against others and I don't take the p*ss. If I don't need something urgently then I tell them and they appreciate that as it eases delivery hassle, I help the driver unload which means he puts the materials exactly where I want them, I treat the warehouse guys in the same manner and they don't send out "iffy" goods and whenever there has been a problem it's been sorted immediately.

As said, be a nice customer but also be realistic in your expectations.

Bob

 

[Graham Orm]

+1 for Rafezetter

The only bit I don't totally agree with is

Of course that only really works with independants and smaller chains of maybe a dozen or so outlets, anything bigger and you're SoL.

I've used a number of builders merchants including the smaller ones and the best over 20 years has been a Jewsons ( wasn't owned by them at first ). The reason for this is very definitely because I built a relationship with the staff, I get the best discounts they can offer me within reason and I know that as I regularly check against others and I don't take the p*ss. If I don't need something urgently then I tell them and they appreciate that as it eases delivery hassle, I help the driver unload which means he puts the materials exactly where I want them, I treat the warehouse guys in the same manner and they don't send out "iffy" goods and whenever there has been a problem it's been sorted immediately.

As said, be a nice customer but also be realistic in your expectations.

Bob

+1 for Jewsons. I have one on the doorstep. Great bunch of lads and good enough prices to keep me going there.