Cutting Tenons.

[Cheshirechappie]

Well - we've had plenty on mortices of late - so how about something to bung up the hole, as it were?

I was taught to cut tenons at school. The drill was to catch the workpiece in the vice, sloping away from you as you stood side-on to the bench, looking 'along' the vice, if you see what I mean. Then saw on the waste sides of the lines, down the side and across the top, so the first cut is triangular. Then turn the workpiece round in the vice, and saw down the other side. Finally, tip the workpiece up vertical, and saw out the remaining triangle. That way, you were always sawing only lines you could see. Finally, catch the workpiece horizontal, and saw the shoulder. Any further cuts for haunches and so on were then marked in pencil and sawn.

The saws we had at school were 12" crosscuts, about 12 tpi from memory. They did a decent enough job, and in my early years at home, a Roberts and Lee Dorchester of similar configuration did all my tenoning. More recently, I tried a rip-filed backsaw - and was amazed at how much quicker the cut was. It seemed to wander less as well - maybe fewer strokes made for less chance of deviation.

At school, we were expected to cut to fit direct from the saw. Some of us managed it reasonably frequently after a bit of practice, but some people never got the hang of it - I'm sure this sort of teaching approach and expectation put some people off woodworking for life! I still aim to cut to fit direct from the saw, and mostly get there or thereabouts, trimming with a wide chisel if I have to. That's probably harder than sawing to the line! It does take care not to over-pare.

Oddly perhaps, when cutting shoulders, we were not taught the trick of chiselling a little start for the saw - it was assumed that the marking knife had severed the fibres cleanly enough to give a neat fit. I do tend to use the chisel trick these days for 'nice' work (but not for 'just bang it together' stuff), and it does give a nicer finish with less chance of tearing, mainly because my knife-lines are not often heavy enough to sever fibres deep enough to completely avoid some tearing.

There must be lots to add - over to you, chaps!

 

[Steve1066]

That pretty much how I was taught. I find that ok on smaller tenons, up too 2in by 2in.
On bigger tenons I prefer to do multiple cross cuts and pare down to my line with a wide chiesl.

 

[D_W]

I saw them as you're describing, unless they're very small, and then I don't bother to turn the piece unless the back side of my cut is wonky shortly after starting. I try for a fit off of the saw, but I'm usually a few strokes of a float fat (a great tool to have that I have from making planes - just the standard bed float - easy to resharpen and shreds grain off cross grain as per your level of touch). Thumb on the float against the tenon and push, each push is worth about a thousandth on a tenon 1.5 inches long and an inch high. Still prefer off the saw with no float.

I make a deep marked line and cut shy of it about a 32nd on the shoulder and then just remove the shoulder waste by wide chisel and mallet, undercutting just slightly.

I tend to use a dovetail saw for all of it unless the tenons are larger, and then reach for something slightly larger. The first tenon saw that I got that was good quality was a 16" tenon saw kit from wenzloff, 11 points. I still haven't found tenons that are big enough for that aggressive and heavy pig. That was a long time ago now, but the advice in bloggery at the time was to get a big tenon saw with a deep plate. Couple that with a heavy brass back and what I've found is a hard starting saw that wants to stick, even in tenons 2+ inches long.

 

[AndyT]

Just the same teaching as you, CC, except that we were told to knife cut, then make a channel for the saw. That was done with one corner of the chisel, going along the line of the cut, not stabs of a wide chisel towards the line.

It's how I still make them, not that I've done many lately. I do agree about the benefit of a rip-filed backsaw.

I have sometimes needed to pare a little bit off to fit, and have found the standard No 72 router good for the job. Quicker to get them right first time though. It's a long time since I've glued on some extra wood to make a skinny tenon usable, I'm pleased to say

 

[bugbear]

I was taught to cut tenons at school. The drill was to catch the workpiece in the vice, sloping away from you as you stood side-on to the bench, looking 'along' the vice, if you see what I mean. Then saw on the waste sides of the lines, down the side and across the top, so the first cut is triangular. Then turn the workpiece round in the vice, and saw down the other side. Finally, tip the workpiece up vertical, and saw out the remaining triangle. That way, you were always sawing only lines you could see.

I've read many references and texts covering a very long period of time; where the author describes tenon cutting, that is ALWAYS how it's done.

The notion of a rip filed saw for the task (as popularised by Robert Wearing) is more complex, since (in early times) most saws were rip filed.

BugBear

 

[Harbo]

I was taught CC's way but now use my Bandsaw where suitable

Rod

 

[Jacob]

Not sure if I was taught or taught myself but:
what I do is put the piece in the vice vertically with the tenon perpendicular to the bench so the cut is direct away from me, not sideways. Then nick the far corner of the top and bring the saw across the end of the tenon for a shallow cut tight to the line, then - keeping the saw in the first cut, deepen itt diagonally - work down the face until there is a diagonal cut all the way but the far end of the cut is still up at the first nick. Then turn it round and cut a diagonal down the face but letting the saw go down the slot. Then saw straight across to finish.
The idea is that the far end of the saw is always in the slot and guided, from the first nick, and the near end is being carefully worked down the line.

The problem with "down the side and across the top, so the first cut is triangular." is that you expected to guide the saw in two places of contact; where it goes in and where it comes out, but my method has the blade guided by the first cut at the far end, by me at the near end.

Difficult to describe!

 

[John15]

I can't remember how we were taught at school (too long ago) but now I do my tenons similar to CC but cut them a trifle fat and trim with a Stanley 71, form a groove for cutting the shoulders, the kerf sloping slightly into the waste, and then trim the shoulders square with a chisel.

John

 

[Saint Simon]

That sawing technique is how we teach it in my school and we don't have the luxury of offering the kids rip saws. I think they find accurate sawing very difficult and need lots of practise pieces. We use router planes for the final fitting.
Not wishing to hijack the thread, I wonder which technique people were taught for chiselling the mortises. Because its what I find easiest I've taught them to mortise chisel undersize and then to finish to the gauged line with a firmer.What were other people taught and what do you do now? I'm self-taught, having done metalwork at school.
Simon

 

[PAC1]

That sawing technique is how we teach it in my school and we don't have the luxury of offering the kids rip saws. I think they find accurate sawing very difficult and need lots of practise pieces. We use router planes for the final fitting.
Not wishing to hijack the thread, I wonder which technique people were taught for chiselling the mortises. Because its what I find easiest I've taught them to mortise chisel undersize and then to finish to the gauged line with a firmer.What were other people taught and what do you do now? I'm self-taught, having done metalwork at school.
Simon

Simon the clue was in the introductory line of the first post in the thread. We have just had 16 pages in 4 threads doing chopping mortices to death. If alternatively it is your dry sense of humour that is actually funny and I apologise.

 

[Saint Simon]

Sorry, my blunder. Will now go back and read what people had to say on mortises.
Simon

 

[AndyT]

Jacob's point about a nick on the corner is a good one. It can be difficult to start a cut on a corner, especially with a coarse saw - the teeth fall across the corner, making the action jumpy. A nick does two useful things - it locates the saw more positively than a thumb does, and it provides a little bit of level surface, enough for two saw points to rest on.

 

[Argus]

Always room for a bit more steam-blowing on mortises :wink: :wink: :wink:

oops...... sorry about that, perhaps I'll get the chop.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob's point about a nick on the corner is a good one. It can be difficult to start a cut on a corner, especially with a coarse saw - the teeth fall across the corner, making the action jumpy. A nick does two useful things - it locates the saw more positively than a thumb does, and it provides a little bit of level surface, enough for two saw points to rest on.

What I meant was making the nick with the saw but pulling back towards me, and against my thumb. But yes knifing a little nick would be more precise.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Not sure if I was taught or taught myself but:
what I do is put the piece in the vice vertically with the tenon perpendicular to the bench so the cut is direct away from me, not sideways. Then nick the far corner of the top and bring the saw across the end of the tenon for a shallow cut tight to the line, then - keeping the saw in the first cut, deepen itt diagonally - work down the face until there is a diagonal cut all the way but the far end of the cut is still up at the first nick. Then turn it round and cut a diagonal down the face but letting the saw go down the slot. Then saw straight across to finish.
The idea is that the far end of the saw is always in the slot and guided, from the first nick, and the near end is being carefully worked down the line.

The problem with "down the side and across the top, so the first cut is triangular." is that you expected to guide the saw in two places of contact; where it goes in and where it comes out, but my method has the blade guided by the first cut at the far end, by me at the near end.

Difficult to describe!

I've seen a YouTube video of something similar - but because the saw ended up at 45 degrees with the handle end down and the toe up, the guy ended up kneeling on the floor. The tiny little nick on the far corner doesn't seem like much of a guide, either. That said, starting the cut by sliding across the whole top face might help some people.

With the method I first described, the saw remains horizontal at all times, so your stance in constant, giving you more control. As you're sawing straight, and have your head above the job, it's actually quite easy to watch both 'across the top' and 'down the side' at the same time.

One thing that is worth mentioning is that the final fit of the tenon is very dependent on starting the first cuts bang on the mark - any deviation at this point, and things just get worse. Solid guidance with a thumb, and 'taking the weight off' help a lot here - and in this instance, I've not found too much bother in starting on the corner - but the same would apply to starting 'across the top'.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I was taught to cut tenons at school. The drill was to catch the workpiece in the vice, sloping away from you as you stood side-on to the bench, looking 'along' the vice, if you see what I mean. Then saw on the waste sides of the lines, down the side and across the top, so the first cut is triangular. Then turn the workpiece round in the vice, and saw down the other side. Finally, tip the workpiece up vertical, and saw out the remaining triangle. That way, you were always sawing only lines you could see.

I've read many references and texts covering a very long period of time; where the author describes tenon cutting, that is ALWAYS how it's done.

The notion of a rip filed saw for the task (as popularised by Robert Wearing) is more complex, since (in early times) most saws were rip filed.

BugBear

While we were practicing for the sample pieces submitted for our 'O' Level Woodwork, our teacher told us that the examiners would scrutinise each tenon cheek for the saw-marks showing the 'three triangles', and would mark down if they saw any alternative saw-pattern, however nicely fitting the tenon. That doesn't necessarily make the method 'right' of course, unless you're trying to pass the exam!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Just the same teaching as you, CC, except that we were told to knife cut, then make a channel for the saw. That was done with one corner of the chisel, going along the line of the cut, not stabs of a wide chisel towards the line.

It's how I still make them, not that I've done many lately. I do agree about the benefit of a rip-filed backsaw.

I have sometimes needed to pare a little bit off to fit, and have found the standard No 72 router good for the job. Quicker to get them right first time though. It's a long time since I've glued on some extra wood to make a skinny tenon usable, I'm pleased to say

I'm not going to admit to any dodgy practices like jamming pieces of veneer between mortice and tenon when assembling the job, because - and I'm not saying I ever have - such practice is poor workmanship. The finished coffee table has done years of service, though....

 

[Cheshirechappie]

That pretty much how I was taught. I find that ok on smaller tenons, up too 2in by 2in.
On bigger tenons I prefer to do multiple cross cuts and pare down to my line with a wide chiesl.

There's a photo in Ellis's 'Modern Practical Joinery' showing him cutting the tenon cheek for an entrance door rail using a full rip - fair enough for something about five inches square, I suppose - but you'd have to be pretty familiar with your saw to guarantee a fair fit. I think your method has much to commend it, given that not that many people wield full rips all that often these days.

 

[Jacob]

Not sure if I was taught or taught myself but:
what I do is put the piece in the vice vertically with the tenon perpendicular to the bench so the cut is direct away from me, not sideways. Then nick the far corner of the top and bring the saw across the end of the tenon for a shallow cut tight to the line, then - keeping the saw in the first cut, deepen itt diagonally - work down the face until there is a diagonal cut all the way but the far end of the cut is still up at the first nick. Then turn it round and cut a diagonal down the face but letting the saw go down the slot. Then saw straight across to finish.
The idea is that the far end of the saw is always in the slot and guided, from the first nick, and the near end is being carefully worked down the line.

The problem with "down the side and across the top, so the first cut is triangular." is that you expected to guide the saw in two places of contact; where it goes in and where it comes out, but my method has the blade guided by the first cut at the far end, by me at the near end.

Difficult to describe!

I've seen a YouTube video of something similar - but because the saw ended up at 45 degrees with the handle end down and the toe up, the guy ended up kneeling on the floor.

He must have had a very stiff wrist or something - or just a bit of a dope!

The tiny little nick on the far corner doesn't seem like much of a guide, either.

It's a guide (plus your thumb) just at the beginning of the cut - quite soon you have a whole kerf along the end which is then a big guide. The blade is guided all the way.

That said, starting the cut by sliding across the whole top face might help some people.

Yes. It might even help you!

It's basically more precise and really comes into it's own with big tenons on wide rails.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Yes. It might even help you!

There is the tiniest outside possibility that one day, someone will write something on one of these threads that might even help you - you never know, Jacob!