Customs declarations and brexit

[Jacob]

So are we actually saying that this is an unsolvable problem that will just carry on infintum along with all the suffering and chaos, surely all the people have the right to a decent happy life.

Yes but they can't agree on what constitutes a decent happy life!
It seems to me that Ireland should be re united and England should look at reparations for 1000 years of violent abuse, but you try telling them!

 

[MarkDennehy]

So are we actually saying that this is an unsolvable problem that will just carry on infintum along with all the suffering and chaos, surely all the people have the right to a decent happy life.

That was literally the motivation behind the good friday agreement. Millions of people all voted (and I'm heavily paraphrasing here but you can read the full GFA in ten minutes flat if you want, and a summary of what it says in about ninety seconds) to "agree to disagree" and get on with their lives. Somehow - and frankly I didn't think it would ever happen - it worked. One of the bigger surprises in my lifetime I think, for a lot of people.

 

[RobinBHM]

People‘s votes are based on matters that concern them, the small picture as opposeed to the big picture if you are seriously suggesting folks who voted for Brexit should accept responsibility for the NI border is like saying everyone who voted for Thatcher should take responsibility for the decimation of coal mining communities when she shut the pits.
Whoever is elected is tasked with the jobs in hand, whilst the UK voted to leave it was down to BOTH sides to come up with workable arrangements & clearly both sides failed, blame lies at the their door not at the electorate, when you employ someone to do a job it’s not your fault if they do a poor job.

There was a workable arrangement: stay in the customs union and Single Market.

No other workable opinions exist.
Anybody that voted for the Boris Johnson deal voted for a customs border in the Irish Sea.
It is dishonest to say both sides failed....the EU offered Theresa May the backstop option.

This hard Brexit, it directly the fault of this govt and those that voted them in.

If Brexiters on this forum want positivity, they need to accept responsibility for what has happened instead of blaming the EU.

Let's be clear: Parliament, the DUP and the electrorate were lied to: the claim was the deal meant "the whole of the UK leave the EU entirely and as a whole. There would be totally unfettered access between NI and GB" all entirely false.

 

[RobinBHM]

BTW, for those thinking or saying "yeah, but they're really the 'ra, so they don't want to be British", I understand that the British press has somewhat dropped the ball here, so just one small point you need to bear in mind here - the people throwing the petrol bombs are not the IRA, they're the other side. The UDF/UDA/UVF unionist terrorists/paramilitaries/whatever noun you're most comfortable with. The ones the First Minister has been meeting with instead of the head of the police service in Northern Ireland. This isn't in dispute by anyone, it's freely being admitted. There's nobody even suggesting this is all an IRA resurgence 23 years after the GFA was signed (literally today, it's the 23rd anniversary).

The point is, they're the ones who want to be British. And they're setting the place on fire.

What is your perspective on the reason why?

Some people are claiming it has nowt to do with Brexit......but there wasn't violence last year.

The DUP got thrown under a bus by Johnson and I'm guessing Brexit is causing a fair bit of frustration.

This political solution whereby NI gets UK tariff rates by some weird arrangement is unworkable

 

[willsie01]

I voted to remain in the EU Robin but being fair I don't think anyone could honestly claim that those situations were caused by Brexit, all existed while the UK was a member of the EU.
OK projections can be made that Brexit will make it worse but they are still projections not fact...yet!

Projections, yes, and subject to what happens when you make plans. There were projections for the U.K. made by people who wanted brexit and there were projections made by people who wanted to remain. Look at the credibility of the people making those projections is a good idea.

 

[sploo]

The DUP got thrown under a bus by Johnson and I'm guessing Brexit is causing a fair bit of frustration.

I know James O'Brien isn't exactly everyone's cup of tea, but he's nailed it with this:

 

[Doug B]

I find it sad that Brexiters refuse to accept responsibility for NI border issue and instead blame the EU.

This hard Brexit, it directly the fault of this govt and those that voted them in.

Make your mind up, there are plenty of people who wanted Brexit but didn’t vote for Johnson’s crowd or his version of Brexit, that’s the problem with democracy

 

[francovendee]

There was a workable arrangement: stay in the customs union and Single Market.

No other workable opinions exist.
Anybody that voted for the Boris Johnson deal voted for a customs border in the Irish Sea.
It is dishonest to say both sides failed....the EU offered Theresa May the backstop option.

This hard Brexit, it directly the fault of this govt and those that voted them in.

If Brexiters on this forum want positivity, they need to accept responsibility for what has happened instead of blaming the EU.

Let's be clear: Parliament, the DUP and the electrorate were lied to: the claim was the deal meant "the whole of the UK leave the EU entirely and as a whole. There would be totally unfettered access between NI and GB" all entirely false.

Quite, The northern Ireland protocol was agreed by the House and was negotiated with the EU not forced upon them. The UK chose to break the agreement and many are now trying to blame the EU for the troubles. When we chose to leave it meant there had to be a border somewhere, between north and south or in the sea. There was no other choice.
If the EU or the UK decide to walk away from the deal and not ratify the deal there will still be a border.
All this and more were labelled 'project fear', the reality is the UK voted to leave and many of the warning are coming true.
The population were told by Johnson none of this would happen and there would be minimal hold ups at the border. I remember Jacob Rees Mogg asserting a technical solution to avoid the paperwork already existed.
No sign of it, maybe he jumped the gun?

 

[MarkDennehy]

What is your perspective on the reason why?

Several things happening in conjunction and building up over the last two years, accelerating over the last 6-9 months - the impact of the NIP being suddenly and strongly felt by local businesses on top of the damage done by the pandemic and the damage that had already been done in some sectors by brexit, the DUP losing their kingmaker position with May's government without gaining the advantages they thought they'd get to offset a hard brexit, the way that the pandemic was handled (the DUP basically blocked the local government from governing as fallout from the ash-for-cash scandal which left the local civil service trying their best to cope but without the ability to make many decisions because legally that required the government), and as the criticism of the DUP mounted, their self-defence was to take a frankly controversial decision not to prosecute Sinn Fein MPs who attended a funeral in violation of the pandemic rules and make that a scapegoat. None of which is a single, isolateable trigger point, but all of which together basically made a pressure vessel without a safety valve.

Now understand, I don't live in NI. I live in a different country so my view of this is not going to have all the nuance and detail that people who do live there will have as a matter of course. But that's what we're seeing down here through the lens of our media and the people we'd know across the border.

 

[Cooper]

As commented on above there is trouble, as predicted, in Northern Ireland and also an imminent election in Scotland, which could result in independence. If Mr Johnson wished to resolve both issues, a possible solution would be to apply for membership to the European Free Trade Association. That would prevent the boarder in the Irish Sea, reduce the demand for Scottish independence and undo the damage to small businesses and that big tax payer the City of London, that his hard Brexit is causing. It would also save my daughter in Munich from having to pay import duties on her family’s birthday presents. I’m sure that few of the people who voted to leave the EU would notice the difference or care. It could also bring the country back together (and correspondents to this forum). This might cause Mr Johnson some slight embarrassment, though they way he lives his private life he seems immune to that.

 

[RobinBHM]

Make your mind up, there are plenty of people who wanted Brexit but didn’t vote for Johnson’s crowd or his version of Brexit, that’s the problem with democracy

The majority of people who wanted Brexit voted for Johnson, I can't say I've heard of any Brexiters saying they didn't want Brexit if it meant leaving the SM and CU. In fact many were calling for WTO....and still are.

Democracy only functions with a well informed public that are told the truth....both those things were and still are absent.

 

[RobinBHM]

Several things happening in conjunction and building up over the last two years, accelerating over the last 6-9 months - the impact of the NIP being suddenly and strongly felt by local businesses on top of the damage done by the pandemic and the damage that had already been done in some sectors by brexit, the DUP losing their kingmaker position with May's government without gaining the advantages they thought they'd get to offset a hard brexit, the way that the pandemic was handled (the DUP basically blocked the local government from governing as fallout from the ash-for-cash scandal which left the local civil service trying their best to cope but without the ability to make many decisions because legally that required the government), and as the criticism of the DUP mounted, their self-defence was to take a frankly controversial decision not to prosecute Sinn Fein MPs who attended a funeral in violation of the pandemic rules and make that a scapegoat. None of which is a single, isolateable trigger point, but all of which together basically made a pressure vessel without a safety valve.

Now understand, I don't live in NI. I live in a different country so my view of this is not going to have all the nuance and detail that people who do live there will have as a matter of course. But that's what we're seeing down here through the lens of our media and the people we'd know across the border.

Many thanks for that insight.

The reality is clearly more nuanced and multifactoral.....but nevertheless Brexit is the catalyst.

Given the division Brexit has caused here in GB I suppose it's no surprise it's led to division in the other nations...NI and Scotland

 

[Cabinetman]

Don’t they use the Euro in Scotland and Wales instead of the £ ?

You Americans, I don’t know lol.
All the four countries of Britain use the pound southern Ireland being in the EU uses the euro, I don’t know but I suspect that a lot of shops in Northern Ireland will accept the Euro. If Scotland manages to leave the union they haven’t really said what they will do about having their own currency and it is expected they will just keep using the pound, until ? Nearly started a whole new thread there!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Democracy only functions with a well informed public that are told the truth....both those things were and still are absent.

absent on both sides. Ftfy.

 

[Jake]

Make your mind up, there are plenty of people who wanted Brexit but didn’t vote for Johnson’s crowd or his version of Brexit, that’s the problem with democracy

Back in the day when a second referendum was a possibility, my view was that there should be a two stage second referendum, the first to find the most popular of the main variants on an STV-type basis (ie each voter ranks in order, hard no deal, bare bones FTA, EFTA, etc) and then a yes/no on whatever variant won the popularity contest. I got loads of stick from some remainers and soft brexiters for advocating something that would put as recklessly stupid as hard brexit on a ballot paper, but although there was a pretty good chance it might have won the first stage, the chances it would have won through the second yes/no stage I think were infinitesmal.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Which would have been fine, had the other options being staying in with or without the Euro, staying in with or without Schengen, with or without a federal state etc. A little honesty on that side would have been nice.

 

[Jake]

Sure, there could have been a third one with should we abandon our veto on Schengen, Euro, federalism, European army, no harm in that.

 

[RobinBHM]

absent on both sides. Ftfy.

There's no equivalence between vote Leave and remain campaign.

Right wing rags have been gaslighting the nation with lies about EU for decades.

I agree the remain campaign was dishonest in its use of project fear....although that was an exaggeration rather than a lie. Other than that there has been little dishonesty about remain.

However the Leave side have been lying since and before 2016 and still continue now.

If Brexit is a success, why gas this govt spent £250 million on propaganda this year. And why do they need to continue lying.

 

[RobinBHM]

Which would have been fine, had the other options being staying in with or without the Euro, staying in with or without Schengen, with or without a federal state etc. A little honesty on that side would have been nice.

I don't understand, those things weren't part of the referendum.

What part are you claiming is dishonest?

 

[Noel]

You Americans, I don’t know lol.
All the four countries of Britain use the pound southern Ireland being in the EU uses the euro, I don’t know but I suspect that a lot of shops in Northern Ireland will accept the Euro. If Scotland manages to leave the union they haven’t really said what they will do about having their own currency and it is expected they will just keep using the pound, until ? Nearly started a whole new thread there!

Thanks for the detailed info, good to know about British money and the Euro thing. Can be very confusing for some.