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RobinBHM

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The UK can now negotiate better terms, because the UK no longer needs to protect Italian agricultural manufacturing, Spanish food exports, German car manufacturing etc
1 German car manufacturing....untrue because UK biggest export market for cars is EU. By the way do you think German car manufacturers that export to USA need to make to USA standards?

2. Sure UK can lower tariffs on olives and oranges....big deal. That's a minute benefit compared to the cost of Brexit red tape: sanitary and phytosanitary controls, customs declarations, transit documents.

3. The UK can't negotiate better terms, it hasn't done so with any of its trade deals and in any case the UK has no leverage to negotiate better terms. 70% of UKs trade is with EU, USA, China....let's see you argue how the UK will negotiate "better terms"

4. When UK was an EU member it already benefitted from preferential trade deals with many countries.....this Brexit claim of an amazing new opportunity was never true, it was a Brexit smoke and mirrors fallacy.
 

Cheshirechappie

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......

4. When UK was an EU member it already benefitted from preferential trade deals with many countries.....this Brexit claim of an amazing new opportunity was never true, it was a Brexit smoke and mirrors fallacy.
Just a factual correction - before the end of the transition period, the UK negotiated reciprocal trade deals mirroring the advantages it enjoyed whilst in the EU with all the countries with which the EU had trade deals - 74 of them, from memory. Some were very small, some (Japan, for example) quite significant.

New negotiations are focusing on two major areas, the Trans Pacific Partnership, and CANZUK. The partial aim is to make the countries involved less dependent on China, but there is also the obvious benefit of freer trade with those countries.

That, by the way, is one of the benefits of leaving the EU. The latter seems more interested in appeasing China rather than looking for international cooperation to curb it's influence, the UK (now independent) is able to build international cooperation. It was reported last week that Biden wants to do similar, and that Johnson wants to use the UK chairmanship of the G7 to discuss other ways to address the China question.
 

Jacob

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....., the UK (now independent) is able to build international cooperation......
So you see a possibility that we might be building nuclear power stations for the Chinese instead of vice versa, now we are not held back by the EU? :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

You don't build international cooperation by choosing not to cooperate with the nations nearest to you.
The UK was "independent" before Brexit, but was cooperating with our nearest neighbours. The EU was "international cooperation".
 
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sploo

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That, by the way, is one of the benefits of leaving the EU. The latter seems more interested in appeasing China rather than looking for international cooperation to curb it's influence, the UK (now independent) is able to build international cooperation. It was reported last week that Biden wants to do similar, and that Johnson wants to use the UK chairmanship of the G7 to discuss other ways to address the China question.
Boris Piccaninny Watermelon-Smile Kenyan-Heritage De-Spunkwaffle "Johnson" and "International cooperation" in the same paragraph. Do I really need to explain why that's both hilarious and deeply depressing?
 

Jacob

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That may just have been because they wanted to be polite or that the required words were not in our current vocabulary.
The media inculcated a conditioned reflex which turned people against Corbyn with all those familiar expressions "not leadership material" "unelectable" "IRA/terrorist supporter" etc etc.
On the door step when asked how or why, they couldn't explain, they looked bemused or simply got angrier
Corbyn upset everyone, .......
as a result of the most intense media vilification of a politician in memory.
They weren't so upset in 2017 before the anti Corbyn frenzy had kicked in and he came close to gaining power, so the media went into overdrive before the 2019 election.
They still are kicking Corbyn - they obviously feel he is still a threat to the establishment, not least because of the total failure of Starmer to make any impression at all.
Remember Theresa May's "we will not let it happen". "We" meant not the tories but the whole establishment. A glimpse into the abyss!
Corbyn is history - though the whole story has yet to be told. Starmer will be history very soon and be completely forgotten!
 

Jacob

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The Single Market removes red tape within the single market. It adds lots and lots of protectionist red red tape for countries outside the single market. The UK can now negotiate better terms, because the UK no longer needs to protect Italian agricultural manufacturing, Spanish food exports, German car manufacturing etc. It may take some time.
Even if this was true you have missed the obvious point that the UK must now negotiate worse terms with its main export market the EU, and won't be a partner with the powerful EU when it negotiates it own terms with the rest of the world.
Double whammy, shots in both feet! How silly can this get?
 

Phill05

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And the question remains unanswered - can anybody point to a brexit benefit affecting us now, in contrast to the obvious dis-benefits widely reported (fisherman et al), bearing in mind we had an "oven ready deal", 5 years of planning and negotiations, not to mention the years before the referendum when the issue was being given much thought?
The answer seems to be absolutely nothing, zero, sweet FA, not a sausage.
Putting this into plain perspective, how can anyone expect something to happen NOW!! this month this year, if someone comes up with an idea it takes time to negotiate, it takes time to plan a design, it then takes time to put into practice, what if you come across a problem no one thought of in the negotiations and planning stage do you still expect things to happen NOW!!, Give it a chance to work.
 

Jacob

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Putting this into plain perspective, how can anyone expect something to happen NOW!! this month this year, if someone comes up with an idea it takes time to negotiate,.....
It's been negotiated for five years now, we've burned our bridges and left, but we are still waiting for people to come up with ideas? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
In the brexit camp a lot of thought must have been put in even before that.
We were told there was an oven ready deal....we were told all would be quick and easy.....and so on.
We are at the end of the process not the beginning - so show us what we have gained.
If nothing yet, then what are we likely to gain, not in vague waffly terms about "deals with the Pacific rim" (a lot further away than Calais) but in real terms of the effect on you and me?

Let's face it - it's as dead as a dodo, a mega mistake, complete nonsense.
 
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Trainee neophyte

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won't be a partner with the powerful EU when it negotiates it own terms
Which is my point - uk won't have to take into account all the European special interests, and can work on its own special interests instead. But in your world, you are all going to die poverty stricken and desolate because without the EU, the UK is nothing.

Life is what you make of it, I always find.
 

sploo

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Putting this into plain perspective, how can anyone expect something to happen NOW!! this month this year, if someone comes up with an idea it takes time to negotiate, it takes time to plan a design, it then takes time to put into practice, what if you come across a problem no one thought of in the negotiations and planning stage do you still expect things to happen NOW!!, Give it a chance to work.
Problem is; we've already left - so that's like telling someone who's jumped out of a plane to be patient; we'll have the parachute ready in a while.

That would be an unfair criticism if we'd been unexpectedly flung into this position, but we haven't; we were repeatedly told how a deal would be "one of the easiest in human history", and all warnings that it wasn't realistic (by people who actually had experience in negotiating international trade deals) were batted away as Project Fear.

Even if we're positive and say, ok, it'll take time, but we'll get things sorted - the problem is that we are inherently negotiating from a weaker position (due to being a smaller individual market).

TN pointed out that we could negotiate better terms because we don't need to jointly consider the needs of (EU) partners. I suppose there's some logic to that, but I rather suspect that the costs and downsides of those joint compromises will be insignificant vs the losses incurred due to being unable to negotiate terms as favourable as we had previously. International trade negotiations are cut-throat and slow; there's little room for sentiment. It's pretty much inevitable that in any negotiations with a large bloc (EU, USA, China) we would be the much weaker party, and in no position to dictate terms.
 

sploo

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Which is my point - uk won't have to take into account all the European special interests, and can work on its own special interests instead. But in your world, you are all going to die poverty stricken and desolate because without the EU, the UK is nothing.

Life is what you make of it, I always find.
But you only get your own special interests if you have sufficient power in a negotiating position to be able to demand them as part of a deal; something which may be quite unlikely given the relative market size of the UK vs the other large trading blocs.

We're not going to die poverty stricken, but we have put up significant barriers to trade with our nearest and largest trading bloc; in order to possibly, at some point, maybe, sign new deals with smaller trading partners thousands of miles from our own market, whilst doing so from a smaller/weaker position. It's not a great pitch really.
 

Lons

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What was this thread about :ROFLMAO:
The sceptics among us will have noted that the thread was started just as the polling notification cards were being sent out for the May elections and the beginning of political TV broadcasts. Link that to the OP and you have your answer. ;)
 

Jacob

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The sceptics among us will have noted that the thread was started just as the polling notification cards were being sent out for the May elections and the beginning of political TV broadcasts. Link that to the OP and you have your answer. ;)
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
This thread was started the day I got a bit frustrated trying to send an oil stone to the channel islands!
 

Phill05

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Problem is; we've already left - so that's like telling someone who's jumped out of a plane to be patient; we'll have the parachute ready in a while.
Yes we have left but unlike jumping out of a plane for that there is only one way down, for us now it's time to make something happen be patient and let them work at it and get sorted and head to being Great again we can do it.
 

MIGNAL

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Well I can assure everyone on here that leaving the EU has really put a serious dent in my finances, such that I don't think I have any option but to call it a day and end my self employment (since 2006). It's the VAT charges that have been imposed, which effectively makes for a 20% increase in my prices. That's a substantial hike. I've lost £7,000 of orders since January. That's the only 'orders' that I've received this year. Yes there will be others from the UK and the US but they won't make up for the loss.
It's back to house bashing, complete with my dodgy back. I'm thinking of drilling holes all along the bottom of peoples houses and filling them in with chemical sht. Whilst I'm at it I'll drill a few small holes in their woodwork and tell them they have a huge anobium punctatum issue that needs resolving immediately otherwise their floors will collapse. £££££££ - great Brexit dividend for me! I'm now a big fan of that undertaker chap who sits in the HoC.
 

sploo

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Yes we have left but unlike jumping out of a plane for that there is only one way down, for us now it's time to make something happen be patient and let them work at it and get sorted and head to being Great again we can do it.
I admire your optimism, but when the people who are supposed to be making something (great) happen are the ones who encouraged us to take this path in the first place, and promised (but completely failed) to deliver something great (well, anything at all really)... let's just say that I feel slightly less trusting of their competence.
 

Phill05

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I admire your optimism, but when the people who are supposed to be making something (great) happen are the ones who encouraged us to take this path in the first place, and promised (but completely failed) to deliver something great (well, anything at all really)... let's just say that I feel slightly less trusting of their competence.
I am pretty sure most of us will have promised to do something or make something and had to let someone down at sometime, I know I have but I don't sit with my head in my hands moaning about it I get out and make a better job next time.
If you have lost some work or income from Brexit or Covid you get out and find something else you can do.
 

sploo

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I am pretty sure most of us will have promised to do something or make something and had to let someone down at sometime, I know I have but I don't sit with my head in my hands moaning about it I get out and make a better job next time.
If you have lost some work or income from Brexit or Covid you get out and find something else you can do.
Yea... but there's a small difference between anything you or I will have likely screwed up during our lives, vs disconnecting the fifth largest economy in the world from one of the largest trading blocs in the world, as a result of promising a load of things we knew probably weren't true.

It's like equating accidentally stepping on a bug to being a mass murderer.
 

Jacob

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I am pretty sure most of us will have promised to do something or make something and had to let someone down at sometime, I know I have but I don't sit with my head in my hands moaning about it I get out and make a better job next time.
....
Yep thats what we want the govt to do - face up to the mess, give up the delusions, admit to the failure and move on. And not use Covid as an excuse.
 

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